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#181 Re: The Garden » 2016 Presidential Election Thread » 472 weeks ago

Smoking Guns wrote:
TheMole wrote:
Smoking Guns wrote:

The Bernie people have been violent as fuck the past month or so

Bernie has disavowed people acting violently at his or others' rallies, they are not 'Bernie People' and definitely not "The Bernie People", as there is no such thing. I have yet to hear Bernie say "knock the crap out of those protesters" to an audience of thousands, but guess who did?

Wasn't a very strong disavow....

Perhaps, but it's still miles and miles better than actually calling for violence, like Trump does.

#182 Re: Guns N' Roses » Axl Rose joins AC/DC » 472 weeks ago

CSS 2.0 wrote:

He sounded awesome there! I'm thinking of buying tickets to the Dusseldorf show, which is only an hour and 40 minutes from where I live. Tickets still available, at 110 euros a piece. It's also the last stop of the European tour, so perhaps they'll give it their best.

#183 Re: The Garden » Climate Change » 472 weeks ago

buzzsaw wrote:

"Scientific facts" change all the time. Go watch John Oliver's scientific studies segment on YouTube. He seems to be pretty liberal, so maybe you can get some insight into how those studies really go.

No, you need to prove how THIS theory is bunk, not raise some vague points about how scientific studies aren't always perfect. Again, the support for man made climate change is due to the VAST amount of studies that all come to the same conclusion.

Also, yes, I do follow Last Week Tonight. I particularly like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXGcGX4YY9M

#184 Re: The Garden » Climate Change » 472 weeks ago

misterID wrote:

SG, you're talking about birthers, truthers are the 9/11 crazies, but both are on the same level.

But climate change deniers are worse. Truthers and birthers don't have to ignore tons and tons of science in order to believe their bullcrap stories, they "simply" have to not believe the government (ignoring that there's no credible motive nor is it fathomable how so many people could be in on the respective conspiracies). Climate change deniers have to argue against the sort of basic statistics even a high schooler can put together.

#185 Re: The Garden » Climate Change » 472 weeks ago

buzzsaw wrote:

Sheeple. Believe everything you're told. Sad that I won't be around when the reality is finally figured out.

Nobody is even claiming there isn't something to it. There is. But you're not getting the whole story. They tell you what they want you to believe and the scientists have a vested interest in global warming being a man made thing. If you don't believe that, you're simply a fool. Because of that, everything they say while probably grounded in truth is unlikely the whole story. That is the part I am questioning.

You're free to question anything you want, but without providing any proof to back up your conspiracy theories you shouldn't expect anyone to take you seriously. I have yet to hear anyone provide a cogent argument that goes beyond "because government" or "because money". If you really believe it's a hoax, then put some effort into it and come up with your own scientific theory, or at the very least point to real peer reviewed studies that support your position.

You'll forgive those of us that have looked at the actual scientific facts and are adamant about driving an agenda that leaves our planet habitable and hospitable for our children and grandchildren.

#186 Re: The Garden » 2016 Presidential Election Thread » 472 weeks ago

Smoking Guns wrote:

The Bernie people have been violent as fuck the past month or so

Bernie has disavowed people acting violently at his or others' rallies, they are not 'Bernie People' and definitely not "The Bernie People", as there is no such thing. I have yet to hear Bernie say "knock the crap out of those protesters" to an audience of thousands, but guess who did?

#187 Re: The Garden » Everyone's a Libertarian, they just don't know it. » 473 weeks ago

monkeychow wrote:
TheMole wrote:

How does that graphic support the idea that everyone's a Libertarian?

I agree....I can see that it seems to be saying there's both republican and democrat core values that count as libertarian but that's only if you can cherry pick out of the values in the middle, I wouldn't think it would be very common for someone to believe in everything in the two middle columns would it?

I think as a political philosophy it has the benefit of at least being internally consistent with itself, to me that (combined with what you said above) is the message in that graphic.

#188 Re: The Garden » Climate Change » 473 weeks ago

polluxlm wrote:

Oil companies don't have all that much power. Most of them are nationally owned and far outnumber the private ones in wealth. In my country the oil company is the biggest corporation we have, yet the state is completely behind the man made climate change narrative. Oil interests seem to have very little influence.

That's mostly true for Europe, but the fossil fuel lobby in the US is tremendously influential, with the Koch brothers being one of the largest campaign contributors around (and Koch Industries of course being a major fossil fuel corporation).

polluxlm wrote:

The real power players are the banking elite, and they'd like nothing better than to enforce a climate tax. It's about power, not money. They already have all the money. What they want are laws that regulate how much money others are allowed to make, people who can threaten their position.

I would've expected that to be true as well, and was ready to agree that financial institutions generally have the greatest influence over economic policy. But I looked it up, and it turns out, however, that electronics and telecommunication (again, talking about the US specifically) are actually the biggest lobbyists, followed by the pharmaceutical industry and only then do the banks and insurance companies come in.
Having said that, what are you basing that second part on? It comes across as total speculation on their motives, and I see absolutely nothing that would support that idea.

polluxlm wrote:

Science? Scientists have to eat too, and currently there are more grants available for "proving man made climate change" than the other way around. Not to mention being labeled a "denier" and a questionable future career if you go against the flow.

You could argue that there are more public grants for studies that confirm man made climate change, but it's undeniable that nearly all of the studies that deny climate change are funded by groups that stand to benefit from climate change denial. So I would say that it is likely easier to get (private) funding for a study that denies climate change than it would be to be one of the many, many studies fishing for a chunk of public or private funding.

polluxlm wrote:

The climate debate has been polarized and political from the start. Science, or rather scientists, are only brought in to prop up the message. There is no certainty in what can't be tested, I'm not even sure we should call it science.

The scientific method consists of a number of steps. Starting from the the definition of the question, over doing historical and background research to building a hypothesis in the first phase. In the second phase the hypothesis needs to be tested, which can be done in a number of ways. You could build an experimental setup that mimics the proces as outlined in the hypothesis, typically on a smaller scale; or alternative, you can test the predictive qualities of your hypothesis. Given that climate effects can't really be scaled down, climate change studies tend to focus on the latter.
Climate change is most definitely science.

What I don't understand is what would motivate the political class to push a climate change agenda. It almost certainly implies more subsidies and funding, negative economic impact and often a negative perception from a large section of voters. I don't think any government on earth is eager to spend more money on something that will empirically and noticeably have a negative impact on the immediate perceived quality of life.

How do you go from "because money" to something more defined?

Let's turn that discussion around though, and look at my home country for a minute. We have the second largest petrochemical cluster in the world (Port of Antwerp), second only to the entire state of Texas. The Port of Antwerp is in turn the largest economic center in Belgium. We have a center-right, liberal (as-in politically conservative) government, and overall the country is mostly right leaning and has been for the past three decades or so. In fact, the current government has been accused of following too closely in Tatcher's footsteps as far as economic policy is concerned. Don't you think if there was a reasonable case to be made against man-made climate change that our political class would have everything to gain from pushing that narrative? Yet, we have not a single political party that denies climate change.

I'll buy it if someone tells me that politicians are abusing scientific studies for their own agenda if that agenda would actually be to their own benefit. I don't buy it if you tell me that politicians somehow choose to push a narrative that effectively makes their jobs infinitely harder.

#189 Re: The Garden » Everyone's a Libertarian, they just don't know it. » 473 weeks ago

polluxlm wrote:

...

I'd love to continue this discussion, but this isn't the thread for it. Perhaps we can split this off?

#190 Re: The Garden » 2016 Presidential Election Thread » 473 weeks ago

It's interesting to see the instant momentum behind the Libertarian candidate in the most recent polls. If this persists, it'll be curious to see who Johnson will be stealing the most votes from, conservatives or democrats...

If I were forced to make a guess I'd say conservatives are likely to lose more votes to libertarians (especially given that both names on the ticket are ex-conservatives), but I might be underestimating the importance of the religious right (although with a Trump candidacy, I find it hard to see bible belters coming out in droves to support of him).

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