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#191 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 263 weeks ago

I started to post this in the other thread, but it's too political, so I am moving it here...

I will say this though: I don't want to hear the Democrats using this (systematic racism/police racism) as a rallying cry for the election.  They had 8 years to do something about this - and there were plenty of incidents over those 8 years - and they did nothing about it.  If they want to sit down and start the very difficult conversations that need to be had (including admitting that they haven't tackled the issues either), I'd be all for that.  That's not how things are going to go down though and we all know it.

There are many people out there that believe the Democrats don't care about minorities except for in an election year, then nothing ever changes.  My view has been the Democrats want to bring more people down from the middle-class and into the ranks of the poor because they think it's going to increase their voting pool.  At some point aren't people going to figure out that they've done nothing for them?  We know the Republicans don't really care about the poor - this is well documented; why is there this misconception that the Democrats do care beyond just creating more of them?

The Democrats have used social issues to rally people to their side in spite of the fact that they've done nothing to help the people on their side.  They are okay with you being whatever you want to be as long as you vote their way - essentially we'll support anything the Republicans are against so you'll vote for us.  I said this at the beginning of the last thread on this and I've said it over and over since then...the Republicans would never lose an election if they could stay out of people's personal lives and the Democrats would never lose if they could figure out a workable way to pay for this dream world they have.  So far, neither is possible, so we swing back and forth and as one side fucks things up, we switch to the other side until they fuck things up.  They get rich, we keep gaining nothing, and the wheel keeps spinning.

That's how we got Trump.  That's how we'll get another Trump in another decade or so.  The swamp needs to be drained...Trump was right.  Draining it is proving way harder than he imagined though.  Deep, DEEP wealth has both parties by the balls.

#192 Re: The Garden » Racial Discussion » 263 weeks ago

So this thread hasn't had a ton of participation.  I'm not terribly surprised for a bunch of reasons, but I am disappointed.  I'm disappointed more people haven't entered the discussion.  I think the little bit of discussion so far has been good.  I don't think we've scratched the surface of what needs to be discussed, but now may not be the bast time for that anyway given the over sensitivity.

#193 Re: The Garden » Racial Discussion » 263 weeks ago

Neemo wrote:

Thats another thing...why the fuck do cops need a Union? Like i said if u fuck up ur done...one occupation where there should be absolutely zero 'bad apples'

I think u is Unidentified or undetermined something...dunno, don't care,  what someone else does in their private life has absolutely nothing to do with me

And for some reason i feel like the q-word is along the same lines as the n-word

Probably more of a discussion for the politics thread, but there are a lot of things in the US that have unions and don't need one (grocery stores for example where high school kids are forced to join a union and pay dues for a part time job of maybe 20 hours/wk bagging groceries).

I've seen some discussion about raising the qualifications to be a police officer (and the pay along with it).  While I don't think that's a bad idea, I'm not sure it solves the problem either.  I'd be interested in seeing where the current police staff comes from...how many are ex-military?  How many college educated in criminal justice? 

A LOT of things are ass backwards - people that do important things (police/fire/teachers not in big unions like Chicago) aren't compensated well and entertainers and politicians make a fortune.  Now many of those roles not compensated well do have really nice benefits that people in private industries would kill for.

#194 Re: The Garden » Racial Discussion » 263 weeks ago

bigbri wrote:

I know I've said this, as has Buzz, several times. In this country, it's rich vs. poor. Full stop. The rest is just a means to ensure that the divide exists and grows between the two. Yes, the current protests are related to this exact topic. It's why you're hearing about "defunding" the police, which is just reallocating some of those resources to where they are needed. But doing that would aid those at disadvantages and help them climb the ladder. The powers that be don't want that.

Can't write more right now, but this is the stuff a master's thesis.

I think that's the general gist of that Flagg is saying as well as others.  So far that seems to be a general consensus, but I'd like to hear other thoughts before accepting it as the premise.

#195 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 263 weeks ago

bigbri wrote:
buzzsaw wrote:
mitchejw wrote:

If you stop and think about it, it makes sense if you own property you use as a residence you should get to vote in the local elections for each property.  Now if you use them as rental properties, the lines get blurred...you should have representation for local issues such as tax increases and things like that.  It's interesting...never really thought about it.

I assume you picked this article to post because of who was identified...it's safe to assume this isn't a one-sided thing that's happening.

So, wait, this has never entered my mind. Could you conceivably vote in multiple local elections because of property ownership? How would you stop someone from voting in a presidential election in multiple precincts where they are allowed to vote? No time to research the topic. This is wild.

I'd never thought about it either.  If you own multiple properties, you have the right to vote on local representation (I would think).  Do you have to identify a "permanent" residence and that is where you vote on national elections?  Not sure...it's an interesting point.

#196 Re: Guns N' Roses » Matt Sorum's book leaks online. » 263 weeks ago

Vale wrote:
otto wrote:

Finished reading. Incredibly poor written, as previously stated.
Matt has had an outstanding life and several achievements for a musician/drummer. He deserved better.
It feels like a quick cash grab where he didn't put in the effort or even the caring to make this worthwhile.
Feels like a bad celebrity blog that had its entries compiled into a cheap bus station book.

Is it the finished version that should have come out in April, or could it still be a draft?

It "looks" like a finished product with a forward, pictures, etc.  Nobody other than the publisher could answer that with certainty.

#197 Re: The Garden » US Politics Thread » 263 weeks ago

mitchejw wrote:

If you stop and think about it, it makes sense if you own property you use as a residence you should get to vote in the local elections for each property.  Now if you use them as rental properties, the lines get blurred...you should have representation for local issues such as tax increases and things like that.  It's interesting...never really thought about it.

I assume you picked this article to post because of who was identified...it's safe to assume this isn't a one-sided thing that's happening.

#198 Re: The Garden » Racial Discussion » 263 weeks ago

misterID wrote:
Axl S wrote:

That said, perhaps it would be better to tackle these issues along class lines and racial lines at the same time. So that no one is left behind.

This, 1000X

I am staying out of commenting for a bit so as not to dominate the conversation, but this is what I mean when I am talking about the socioeconomic situation.  Some of this is likely racism, but it also has to do with keeping the poor down and not a specific race (or races). I believe there are blurred lines.  This is where the discussion could start getting political and while I think that has something to do with this, let's hold off on that for now...it will distract from the overall topic.  It will inevitably come up and that's fine, but let's not lose focus on the purpose of this discussion.

I appreciate the dialog so far.  This is a very sensitive subject (especially now) and I know there are strong feelings on different sides.  We're not going to make progress by riots or even peaceful protests.  Meaningful conversations need to happen.  We can't make good decisions on how to solve a problem until we better understand it.

#199 Re: The Garden » Racial Discussion » 263 weeks ago

Randall Flagg wrote:

There are clear disparities at the macro level. But if we’re not allowed to discuss the reasons for that disparity other than to yell “systemic racism”, we’re not really interested in addressing grievances. Education, behavior, procreation, and work ethic are all traits that define each of our opportunities in life. And they’re each almost entirely in our own hands.

I don't agree with this.  I think we have to discuss all of it (which is what I'm trying to do) to dig deeper and find the nuances between everyone has an opportunity and systematic racism.  Everyone might have an opportunity, but that doesn't mean they have the same opportunity.  Absolutely decisions made when presented with opportunities make a difference, but so does the number (and type) of opportunities presented to people. 

For example, I grew up poor.  We were on food stamps at times.  Our big family vacation of my childhood was driving from Chicago to St Louis to go stay at a Howard Johnson.  I was a smart kid but got bored with school easily.  Here's where things start to veer off though.  I didn't have anywhere near as many "negative" opportunities available to me.  I wasn't surrounded by gangs, drugs, prostitution, etc.  The worst decisions I made as a child was some very minor shoplifting.  Once we moved out to the suburbs, there were even less opportunities for bad choices.  I drove by Cabrini Green in Chicago.  I went to games at Comiskey Park and Chicago Stadium.  I didn't live there and I didn't live that life.  I didn't have to dodge that many pot holes just to survive.

I'm not here to blame everything on systematic racism, but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't exist on some level.  What I want to know is why?  If it's not at the micro-level, then what at the macro-level is allowing this to happen?  I think environment matters, and while some of that is socioeconomic more than race, cities like Chicago while they are very diverse, the neighborhoods themselves aren't as much.  There's something to it and while I don't blame it for everything like some do, I think the only way we can get past this and make it better is to have real discussion about it.  Hard discussion.  It's going to hurt people's feelings (not here, in general).  But progress will never be made until it happens.  Honestly.  Lay it all on the table.

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