My point exactly. the song is associated with the video. Nobody thought it was a joke before they saw the video. Play the song in a neutral setting and  people WILL like it.  And the situation with people not knowing the name of a song(Civil War) is not unique to the general public when it comes to alot of songs. Huge club hits like Low by hip hop artist Flo Rida are requested all the time by the wrong name. Most people know it as Apple Bottom Jeans . When I ask if they mean "Low" they aren't sure. Sometimes they even say "can you play song #4 off justin Timberlakes new album.  The general public doesn't care what a  song is called. You play Civil War and people WILL like it and remember it.   Civil War just might be the one Gn'R song that even Gn'R haters like.

haha! Ask anyone who's not a diehard to name anything other than SCOM, PC, Jungle, or November Rain. You really are outta touch here Saikin with the appreciation that Civil War garners from Gn'R fans and non fans alike. That is a sick ass song and I've yet to hear anyone ever say otherwise.

None of the Estranged bashing ever happend untill after the video was released. the song rules and everyone knew it. BUT when they put out the over the top video it was durring the Grunge fever pitch and it was now cool to blast bands like Gn'R. the video was pompus so critics started to associate the song with the video.  the video was anything but street crd Gn'R so of course sudenly the song losses it's cred. My brother who is not in any way shape or from a diehard or even a  fan really just said he thinks Estranged is, and I quote "fucking awesome".

is it just me or am I seeing a situation develope here where people are wanting to like the new Gn'R so badly that the've actually started trying to justify a song like  Estranged being a  joke or Civil War being forgettable to support their case? This has got to be one of the most insane things I've ever seen on a  Gn'R forum.

Seriously outside the cozey confines of the Gn'R forum world would think The Blues is one of the greatest songs Axl has ever written? I just don't  see that happening. Up there with SCOM, Civil War, November Rain, Estranged? No way. And again here we go judging VR's material on their talent. Saying they should be able to do much more. Well maybe if they spent 10 years doing it they would but they wanna fucking rock so they throw some shit together and there ya go. The talent in this Gn'R + the material we've heard + the time it's taken = major letdown. If the talent arguement can apply to VR it certainly can apply to Gn'R when they're arguebaly a more talented group of musicians. 

Here's the thing. Axl has surrounded himself with a bunch of yes men. Argue it all you want but it's the way it is. Axl is the engine in all this. The songs are his, the direction is his, the ambition is his and there's nobody in this band to tell him to fuck off and lay down a  track. In VR you got a bunch of no nonsense rockers. Super talented but with an ounce of the ambition. VR's like a Porsche but with nobody to drive it.  Get Axl and the VR guys back together and you'd have the driver to run the fucking Porsche.  I have no doubt in my mind that if these guys could sit down and work out their differences they'd blow any of this new Gn'R stuff outta the water. Slash and Duff would have no problem telling Axl enough is enough. Axl would bring his vision, Slash would bring that vision to fruition and there ya go.  You'd a have a Gn'R with attitude, you'd have new and exciting music. It's called chemistry and i relly dont' thik the new Gn'R has "IT".  I don't believe this new Gn'R has acomplished anything that the old Gn'R couldn't have. I mean with everyone that's been involved you'd think we'd have one song that we could all at least  agree on but we don't  and we're far from it.

I agree with Dreamline about Axl's voice.There's always been something about it that is appealing even when it's in the shitter. Just imagine Axl singing on Contraband or even Libertad with his knack for melody and lyrics. They'd fucking rock. It's not the guys in VR who let it down in my opinion. They just didn't have the proper driver.  They aren't out to set the world on fire or be something they aren't. Axl on the other hand is too busy trying to be everything at once and it simply comes up flat.

Whoa. I kinda got of topic there. Sorry.

Bigbri I'm no expert in production either but like you I use my ears. For me the Gn'R stuff is a clusterfuck. It doesn't  sound good, it doesnt' sound professional. Vocals are drowned out far too often, guitars are hidden under bullshit synth, too many electronic beeps and blips going on. The drum machines are embarassing and if they aren't  drum machines than holy shit does Brain ever sound robotic and soulless. The songs have lost any heart and soul  they may have had due to the production. they sound bloated and pretentious.  I mean an all out "industrial" band like NIN sounds more organic than this stuff in my opinion.