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#651 Re: Guns N' Roses » The CD era - alternative angles » 900 weeks ago
Yup, that's the answer. GNR would've sold a fair amount of records based on their AFD rep, but they would've never achieved the status they did had the UYI's crash-landed in the midst of the Seattle movement. Ironically, both UYI and Nevermind were Geffen releases - with the UYIs out one week before. It's almost symbolic in retrospect, whilst a complete coincidence at the time. Geffen had no great anticipation for Cobain, but they were expecting a whole lot from Axl. The UYI's were an instant hit, whilst Nevermind was a sleeper hit, steadily growing along with the recognizability of Smells Like Teen Spirit. In a way, GNR beat the odds by claiming the level of an established act and shielding themselves from obscurity when grunge dominated the charts. A lot of their 80's peers weren't so lucky.
Also, as you mentioned the music world was shaken up so badly that there was what you might call a vacuum of power. The shakers and movers of the 80's were out of the game at least temporarily, and Cobain, the man who would be king, denied himself the crown by ending his own life in '94. Shortly, there was no new Axl.
I find it amusing that you'd had had Axl listen to all those albums. Based on what I've read, it's pretty obvious that Axl's always been super-listened. He was aware of bands like NIN and NWA far earlier than many others, and seemed to recognize the potential these groups possessed. That's always something Axl has seemingly taken into question; what's going on in music now, and what may happen in the next few years? It takes a little luck and awareness to create a sound that's not completely dated by the time of its release when people are sick and tired of hearing same antics on every other concurrent release.
While Axl had various distractions in his personal life after the UYI tour (the Seymour/Everly lawsuits, for one), I wager one reason they didn't begin on a follow-up album properly in '94 was that Axl couldn't exactly figure out where he'd want the GNR sound to go. No big surprise that at that very moment ('94-95) he was toying with the idea of putting GNR on a hiatus and take on the tumultous industry climate by creating a solo record with top-notch players from the eras other, arguably more relevant bands (Trent Reznor from NIN, Dave Navarro from Jane's Addiction, Dave Grohl from Nirvana...). Such a supergroup fronted by Axl could've done some serious damage at the time, even if they'd only released one single album.
Without Izzy sharing song writing responsibilities, and Slash taking his typical stance that it's not rocket science, just put some tunes together and release it, tour, repeat, it's no wonder Axl chose to be left with his thoughts for a year or so. When Slash came back from the Snakepit tour, Axl had figured out he didn't want Slash's straight-forward attitude and lack of consideration over the sound (as opposed Axl, that is) to "taint" the next release. Hence, Axl assumed control and demoted the others to hired help.
I assume that by '96, he had figured a new direction to which they could implement Slash's blues-based sound. By this I don't necessarily mean Axl was a singular mastermind when it came to the bands sound, rather than he seemingly needed an overall idea with which he was personally satisfied with before even going near a recording studio. The band, while together on a three-week jamming period, did mostly Axl's (and Paul Huge's) songs, but they still needed another round of songs to round up the album. After Slash quit, Axl stated the album was shelved because he wasn't able to replace Slash properly. And when you look at Robin, his sensibilities as a player are light-years away from Slash (note that I'm not comparing them technically). Therefore, Axl needed to figure out the GNR sound again, now with Robin as the key player. The music world had changed again, so he had to listen to another batch of albums all over again.
Then he was proven wrong, Buckethead was elevated as the new key player. Axl listens to some music, thinks it over again...
Years pass with little consequence.
#652 Re: Guns N' Roses » The CD era - alternative angles » 900 weeks ago
Good one.
The article does manage to coin some basic issues about reforming hair bands. A lot of people just blew their opportunity back in the day at the height of their success, got burned and spent the 90's in a flux. Now they're attempting to pull it together again since most doors in front of them have been swung shut. Top of the heap bands like GNR and Motley Crue faltered through the past decade, and when the big fish's didn't manage to take on the Seattle movement, the lesser bands found themselves stranded. Now, GNR and Crue ride the nostalgia train as their original fanbases are in their 30's-40's. Currently, it's a very friendly market for compilations (Red, White & Crue / GNR: GH) and new tours. This target group isn't expecting them to change the face of the music world, rather than to catch some memories dating years back; the imagined freedom of youth which is now represented by the aging frontmen, symbolizing getting older and riding the time capsule. Some people and frontmen do move on, but the bands need to be sure to appease both crowds.
There you have another issue with CD. Back in the late 90's, GNR wasn't a hot property with their newly-adopted industrial sound. Now, there was money to be made with tickets to the AFD freight train. Looking back, 2001-2 could've been a reasonable period in time to release the album. Axl could've toured for a year or two and might've released a follow-up as well. Then he could've gracefully disbanded the lineup, should he have wanted to cash in on the reunion.
The big bands of the day will remain to thrive, with second-class acts like Cinderella and Poison following firmly in tow. But Eddie Trunk's closing words in the article do stick with me.
"There is no pot of gold out there for these guys. They can all make their money, and they can all have some level of success, but the glory days of playing these arenas and stadiums is over."
What do you think would've happened had Axl missed the bands last train to superstardom by prolonging the release of the UYI's for another year?
#653 Re: Guns N' Roses » The CD era - alternative angles » 901 weeks ago
I remember actually reading a similar story about Mick Jagger. In 1970, as The Stones ditched their second manager Allen Klein (who also had the Beatles as his clients), Jagger more or less took over. He had previously studied economics and had learned the ropes of the music industry by observing the bands management(s), so he had a pretty good idea of what he was doing. Anyway, the story goes that Axl was impressed with Jagger duly checking the accounts, receipts, et al at the eve of a Stones gig and had a serious hands-on approach to the business end of their line of work.
Axl's pretty much doing the same thing by now; after Alan Niven, Doug Goldstein and Merck he's finally in charge, with Beta and Del James doing most of Axl the Manager's legwork. Anyway, this is how Axl approached the entire situation back in 1989, before there even were UYI's.
Does the business end of rock & roll ever interfere with your creative attitude?
Not for us. This is music, this is art. It's definitely a good business, but that should be second to the art, not first. I was figuring it out, and I'm like the president of a company that's worth between $125 million and a quarter billion dollars. If you add up record sales based on the low figure and a certain price for T-shirts and royalties and publishing, you come up with at least $125 million, which I get less than two percent of.
[...]
Is there any lesson you've learned that you wish you knew a few years ago?
What I'd tell any kid in high school is "Take business classes." I don't care what else you're gonna do, if you're gonna do art or anything, take business classes. You can say, "Well, I don't want to get commercial," but if you do anything to make any money, you're doing something commercial. You can be flipping hamburgers at McDonald's, but you're a commercial burger flipper.
- Rolling Stone, 08/10/89 (interview by Del James)
#654 Guns N' Roses » The CD era - alternative angles » 901 weeks ago
- sic.
- Replies: 11
One silly thing about this band is that no matter how long it takes to get a record out, somehow the fanbase as a whole perseveres. Obviously, the total amount fluctuates depending mostly on whether we're living a touring era or a silent period. Some people 'wait' for years on end, get discouraged, and never come back no matter what happens. Others drift in and out in a more open term, basically waiting for the band to give them something to get excited about. Some merely grow cynical, a few of them sticking around due to a force of habit. I, myself, just took another minor leave of absence, as I felt I really had nothing else to say about this outfit or their ridiculously prolonged album release.
Then it hit me.
There's always something in the band and the current situation worth considering. What does it mean? For one, the situation is and always has been rather unique. This isn't your 'normal' band by any stretch of the word. Regardless of any lineups combined talent in the past 10 years, from 05/01/98 onwards GNR has existed solely as a custom-built group to accomodate the song-writing and performance of Axl Rose. What's curious is that never has such a situation gotten so entangled with various obstacles spanning from personal characteristics to ownership lawsuits, covering almost every other aspect imaginable of the production.
Have band, will tour
Rod Evans, the original Deep Purple vocalist in 1968-9, sang on the bands first three studio albums before being dumped along with bassist Nick Simper during the massive internal restructuring in '69. The lineup changes would help the band to breakthrough and establish them more clearly as a hard rock group. Evans would go to other bands while the careers of his former band mates began to thrive. At the height of their fame, they'd face a resignation comparable to Slash's departure from GNR as guitarist Ritchie Blackmoore left due to musical differences. After one more studio album in 1976 with surrogate member Tommy Bolin, Deep Purple was no more.
Until 1980.
Rod Evans, the original vocalist, had left the music industry behind several years prior, and was now approached by a shady management company specializing in rip-off bands. Their reasoning was simple: Evans would justify the use of the band name, and would remain as the only shareholder of the 'reformed' 'Purple. Both the management and their in-house players (rounding up Evans' backing band) would be on wages, meaning they couldn't be held legally accountable for any copyright infringements or whatnot.
The result was a financial and professional disaster for Evans, who was gullible enough to see this as an opportunity to make a comeback to the biz. He never had a chance anyway, as the use of the band name was out of his hands and he didn't have the contacts the band had made during the Ian Gillan-era. In retrospect, Evans' Deep Purple '80 is considered a cover band with the original singer, and a substandard one at that.
Conclusion: When measured against Deep Purple '80, Axl's GNR doesn't qualify as a rip-off band. He owns the name and never gives a show without at least three tracks of new original material. Hired help does take him closer to many recognized solo artists, who have a professional backing band, often revolving and generally anonymous. This leads to GNR being distinctly Axl's band, while he is well within his rights to perform under the name.
Then again, the setlists do contain mostly AFD material, which does take them dangerously close to a cover band. As a compromise, one needs to come to terms with the fact that Axl owns and records under the GNR name and sees the current band as a more direct continuation to the early 90's lineup than the rest of us do. And he should; the '01-'02 lineups were GNR in the sense that they'd contributed to atleast two separate albums, which Axl considered as GNR. We'd likely feel the same way (in terms of continuation if not necessarily quality) had he released those albums back in the day.
Off the record
Soon after The Sex Pistols had broken up, John Lydon abandoned the stage name of Johnny Rotten and formed a new group called Public Image Ltd., with people like Keith Levene, an original guitarist of The Clash. PIL started off as a post-punk band, garnering praise for their innovative (albeit challenging) sound and fared well in the UK. In 1982 however, the band abandoned the Old Continent in favor of New York City, while their recording contract with Warner had expired and not renewed. The band began to work on a new album, with Lydon's old associate Richard Branson of Virgin stepping in as a potential distributor. After about a years work, recordings began to take shape and in May '83 "This is not a Love Song " was readied as a single track for Branson's consideration.
However, internal tensions had escalated during the recording process and Keith Levene and current bassist Pete Jones parted ways with the band. Lydon and drummer Martin Atkins regrouped the band to meet touring commitments, while Levene took the recordings and finalized the work on the album, now titled Commercial Zone. Levene went on to present the mixes to Richard Branson as the new PIL album, yet Lydon vetoed the tracks as unfinished and unsanctioned work.
In November '83, Levene released Commercial Zone under the newly-found independent label, PIL Records. This had been the bands original intent in the beginning of the recording process, while the end product was planned as an EP called You Are Now Entering a Commercial Zone. A limited release in the US was reprinted by July '84, to coincide with Virgin's release of a reworked Commercial Zone, now titled This Is What You Want... This Is What You Get. Virgin stood by Lydon's version, which had Levene's parts re-recorded by session players. Their legal action against Levene and PIL Records prevented further selling and repressing of Commercial Zone.
The Virgin album was seen as a step to a more audience-friendly direction, and estranged most of the original fanbase. Those who have heard both albums generally regard Commercial Zone as a superior version.
Conclusion: Axl knew what he was doing when he disbanded the original musical partnership on 12/31/95. From thereon, no future GNR album could be released without his direct consent, as he would be the sole shareholder with the others acting out on wages. Otherwise we might've seen an EP from the '96 sessions if Axl would've been outvoted by Slash and Duff to turn the tracks over to Geffen.
Breakups with guitar players have also been commonplace with the new band. With the guitar parts for the Sean Beavan-produced album completed, Robin left for NIN in '99. Axl ordered some of his parts to be re-recorded by Brian May. Soon after he hired Buckethead to record additional solos to spruce up the overall sound (the various versions of TWAT set a good example for this). Therefore Robin's situation was not entirely caused by spite, it also had to do with Axl desiring to try something new after the reception of Oh My God. Had Robin stuck around, Brian May wouldn't have probably showed up, yet Bucket might've stepped in eventually.
Buckethead will most likely remain on the record, as Axl seems to have no beef over the general sound of the album or his guitar parts. Paul Huge and Brain will likely be featured on the album to varying degree as guilt inclusions if nothing more; both worked on the project consistently for six years (Paul '96-'02, Brain '00-06).
Somebody raped my Tapeworm abortion
As a concept, Tapeworm is the wet dream of every NIN/A Perfect Circle/TOOL fan. Trent Reznor would work on songs outside "the NIN brand", collaborating with members of the definitive live lineup; Charlie Clouser and Danny Lohner from the Self-Destruct -era. Vocalists included Phil Anselmo (Pantera/DOWN) and Maynard James Keenan. As time passed, Reznor finished his work on The Fragile. Meanwhile Tapeworm slowly morphed into what could be described as the near-complete Perfect Circle lineup (incl. Keenan, Lohner and Josh Freese) produced by Trent along with his associates Alan Moulder and Atticus Ross.
In 2001, Moulder tracked down an album worth of demos. Studio time was booked and all those concerned were ready to make Tapeworm happen. In 2003, Danny Lohner informed Kerrang that the album was ready to be mixed, but had been delayed by unforeseen difficulties involving Reznors and Keenans record companies (Universal and BMG). The following year, Reznor terminated the Tapeworm project, citing label issues as the main reason to shelve a fully-recorded album.
The only track to ever surface from the years spent in the Nothing Studios on an irregular basis was a track called Vacant. APC included the song to their 2001 setlist, starting from Portland, OR on 01/31/01. A way to celebrate a future prospect turned into a funeral wake as a studio version by APC (renamed Passive) was included to their cover album eMotive in 2004, after the project had been put on indefinite hiatus.
Conclusion: In both '01 and '02, Axl has performed live versions of album tracks which will likely be never released. By this I mean that the handywork of both Sean Beavan ('99-00) and Roy Thomas Baker ('00-'02) has since been eradicated by far and large in favor of Axl's personal input. As can be observed by comparing the studio leaks with any of their RIR3 counterparts, the songs have been modified to such a degree that they're almost completely different songs with the same lyrics and melodies. It is only after the leaks and the most recent shows that we are beginning to realize the most current (and possibly final) sound of the album.
Other than that, albums ready to be mixed and record company hassles sound ominous. The combined starpower of Keenan and Reznor wasn't enough to muscle Tapeworm out of jam. Keeping that in mind, $13 million dollars and the current industry climate against Axl and the GNR brand is not something I'd readily call a fair fight.
These are just a few things from the top of my hat, which are all separate events, yet they made an impression on the people involved. Add them all up, stir them with the lunacy and spending that's plagued the project since Day #1, spice up with the absence of proper management/project leaders, and you have a nightmare which haunted the record company executives for years on, until they became even more frightened of digital downloads and the decline of physical recordings.
I'm sure there are other examples.
Can you think of any?
#655 Re: Guns N' Roses » Question About Universals Best Selling Artists? » 904 weeks ago
As a sidenote, while people tend to blast Merck, he was at one point managing both Elton John and GNR. While remembering he had Morrissey in his roster from the Sanctuary label, it's a rather impressive set of clients.
#656 Re: Guns N' Roses » Question About Universals Best Selling Artists? » 904 weeks ago
Elton John, Luciano Pavarotti, Janet Jackson, Bon Jovi, Barry White and Mariah Carey have all reached the 100 million album mark. GNR's said to in the 90 million territory.
- source
Elton's Universal's biggest singular artist in terms of record sales. GNR is most likely have the best sales with least original albums.
#657 Re: The Sunset Strip » Marilyn Manson and Twiggy Ramirez Have Reunited » 904 weeks ago
There's a long and rambling interview over at The Hierophant, in which Manson talks Twiggy, Tim Skold and Chris Vrenna - for starters. Trent Reznor gets his share of bickering and Axl gets the mandatory namedrop.
Recommended for anyone interested in Manson and/or Twiggy, or the various people associated to the band.
I went downstairs [at The Roosevelt Hotel] to meet Jonathan Shaw. [...] I sit down and the first person that walks into the room was Twiggy. It was really strange - a complete coincidence out of nowhere. I would never go to this bar that's in this hotel unless I was staying at the hotel - although I normally don't go out anyway.
So we sat down and I noticed he looked a little bit sad. We were both almost in tears seeing each other again. We're like twin brothers in some strange ways, although I prefer not to be blamed for certain aspects of his facial features. He wouldn't want to get blamed for not having as big of a penis as he does, although mine has preserved its integrity, we'll just say. In our five minute conversation, he had told me he had gone through a really hard relationship breakup very similar to mine. I could see it in his face - he's like my little brother, so I knew.
[...] The conversation didn't go any further than, 'Hey, when you get back into town in six weeks, we should hang out. Let's get together.' I asked him, 'How was it with my old pal Trent?' I think he best described it as 'A vacuum of happiness.' I guess he found out he wasn't in the band anymore when he read it in the press. He did have a strange comment for me 'Never in your craziest days of ever doing anything' - and I've never been an extreme dick in any way to Twiggy because I've never needed to. We never had a falling out or anything like that. I've had a reputation of not being the most polite gentleman in the past - that's putting it lightly. 'Never in your worst days could you have made my life as uncomfortable and miserable as it was this last year.' The good news is it's over.
During his time in Marilyn Manson, Tim Skold has extended his role in the band from producer to almost the sole music composer on your last record. Taking this trend into account, few fans would have foreseen his abrupt exit at the end of the 2007 tour. Please tell us about the split and what this might mean for your future direction in music.
I wouldn't consider it a split in the sense you can compare it to any previous band relationships, Tim became a very important fixture in Marilyn Manson with The Golden Age of Grotesque and he was a very important person for me in making Eat Me, Drink Me. I don't know how he feels about me as a person, I know that the passion in the music making was there, I can hear it. I wasn't so vulnerable that I would let someone do whatever they want. There should be no misconception that I just said '˜ok I'm going to sing and you can do what you want Tim'˜, it wasn't like that. He got me inspired and we wanted to do something different and I like working with him, so there is no problem with me and him. He may end up hating my guts but that's not what I want, this is only about me and Twiggy. I just know that those two guys, I know there's too much tension and history there, I don't know, I can just imagine. I'm not afraid to feel selfish because I'm saying it's the right thing for right now. I know it might of made more sense for me and Twiggy to get together to make a new record and then that could be what happens, but this is the record that Tim wrote.
[...]
And Chris, heaven forbid NIN fans don't want to believe it, but Chris is responsible for a lot of what people like about the sonic sound of NIN, the drum sounds, the sample and such. He did a lot of the work and he didn't get the creative credit. Chris is very talented as a drummer but also the keyboard player; because he started out as a keyboard player.
[...]
So I hate people that think Chris is a stand in, for a lot of reasons because Chris doesn't reinterpret the parts, he plays them exactly how they where on the album, but he plays them in a more difficult way but it actually to me it sounds more live, like a live band and it sounds more like the record. What people don't know is that Chris was involved in a lot of those keyboards, there's a lot of stuff that Chris did keyboard wise on Antichrist Superstar, on Portrait Of An American Family. I met Chris same day I met Trent and I helped Chris throw up into a beer can, which I don't even know how you do that, on our Way to see U2. The first time I was in LA, I met Axl Rose and mentioned something about Charles Manson songs that he had never heard of and then he did that Charles Manson cover a year later.
[A rather bizarre Axl namedrop there to begin with, but that's Mr Warner for you.]
I've known Chris the whole way and I don't know if people get it enough from reading my autobiography, or if you didn't read it then your listening to this. Chris was the one who ended up sticking by me when there was a complete melt down during Antichrist Superstar, and Chris recorded every single vocal of mine on Antichrist Superstar, and that's why I sometimes get pissed, and not for my ego, but for the fact Chris doesn't get credit and people think oh well Trent is the guy behind everything on that record, I feel that Chris deserves some credit for it.
#658 Re: Guns N' Roses » Which member do you respect the most? » 904 weeks ago
Robin.
If there's one person in any possible post-UYI, who's bound to take a furious amount of heat from the fanbase (second only to Axl himself), it's the guy who is viewed as the Slash replacement. To his credit, Robin took the job, saw his initial term through, tried out with old flame Trent again and still chose to come back. For years, he had to put up with rather malicious comments about his playing, his appearance, everything in him that wasn't Slash. Certainly Robin was anxious to differentiate himself from Slash in the get-go; otherwise he wouldn't have donned his NIN regalia at RIR3. But he started to change, try out some different outfits. By the end of the '02 tour, he'd switched into a trippy grunge-glam appearance, which certainly spelled out showmanship. Once the band resurfaced, Robin blew past former critics away with technique that had evolved in leaps and bounds, now sporting a hair style more appropriate for an old hair band.
No other member (besides Axl) has had to deal with such a predicament, and many others would've quit the job midway, simply because of the animosity it attracts.
I also respect Tommy, and people need to stop taking the 'Get on board...' comment out of context. It's easy to take the cry-baby route about how Tommy was attacking everybody, when in fact, he wasn't. That comment was directed to the rumormongers that suggested Tommy had thrown his bass at Axl during the Guns' set at the Pigeons of Shit Metal gig, or that there'd been a mutiny against Axl down the line, led by Tommy. The way I read the comment (and Tommy's full statement) is that they were enjoying the tour as a band, and didn't need people stirring up shit. Sure, it's a bit vague a comment and not altogether necessary to begin with. But when people just remember the last sentence of the entire press release (which, on its own, does spell out a 'Take it or leave it' attitude from him), I doubt the blame lies solely on Tommy. You want to blame somebody for a real 'Get on board' attitude, look no further than Del James, whose 'Side of the stage' column was one of the most ridiculous propaganda pieces I've ever read about the band.
With that said, give a it rest or.... 
#659 Re: Guns N' Roses » Author Marc Canter speaks about hearing CD » 905 weeks ago
I don't want to sound like I'm making excuses for Axl and his people - I'm not.
However, one needs to look at the big picture (which still contain variables beyond public knowledge) to realize that the release of the album itself is not simple feat. Axl might've been on one hand, scared to finish it all up in the euphoria of the '06 tours, and the other hand, the label and the management were playing a dangerous game with each other, hoping the other one would bend by the time Axl would finish the album. None of those things happened. Axl failed complete his work, Merck failed to make a new deal and Universal failed to set up the album release in order to be on stand-by when the master copies would arrive. It all went down in flames in late '06 and Axl, unaware of the damage done or simply to soothe the situation, announced that he could make things right with the label by early January, with a March release.
Of course, none of that happened either.
Axl went into hiding, fine-tuned the album, remixed the songs and toured to cover the aforementioned costs. He needed to have enough GNR money (instead of his own, I reckon) to cover all areas of the album work up to the mastering, which is why 2007 went on with bursts of activity. The previous year had taken a bite out of the GNR cash-flow, because I gather they were capitalizing on getting CD before Christmas and the label was expected to save their asses by submitting to a high-speed release. The album is done now, and the situation is what it was supposed to be exactly one year ago.
#660 Re: Dust N' Bones & Cyborg Slunks » GUNS N' ROSES Book Author, Marc Canter, Interviewed » 905 weeks ago
Well, it ain't the first.
Marc said that on HTGTH last Halloween.
I have known Axl very well for 23 years and Slash for 31 years and one thing for sure, Axl does not lie. You will always get the truth form Axl. The problem is a lot of the time you won't get any comment from Axl at all because his words have been twisted so many times. If he set a date for the record, he ment it. I heard the record in Aug 2006 (and by the way it's great)and he told me it would be out before Xmas of 2006. The problem is things change as days go by that were unseen at the time he set those dates and thats what keeps holding the record back.
So yeah, in August '06 Axl played Marc the album. Merck said they still had three-four days to go at that point, but Axl was getting cold feet about the finishing up the process. So those two (Marc n' Merck ) back each others stories quite nicely.
If Marc heard the 13 or so tracks slated for CD, there's a chance the rhythm parts in the end product have been tinkered, with some new Axl vocals. Based on what's gone down since, it's fair to assume Marc heard a very finished version.
