You are not logged in. Please register or login.
- Topics: Active | Unanswered
#681 Re: Guns N' Roses » GNRevolution Exclusive! Classic Rock Feb Mag Cover! » 907 weeks ago
Methinks there's a whole albums worth of random Buckethead guitar parts in Axl's vaults. But yes, Better was obviously not worked on in 2001. That doesn't mean a rough version of the song (or songs) isn't from an earlier era.
"I found it difficult to chart a linear development of the songs that they were working on," recalls Moby. "They would work on something, it would be a sketch for a while, and then they'd put it aside and go back to it a year, six months later." - RS, 2000
If Better (or parts of it, anyway) existed pre-2001, it was obviously very different from what it is today, otherwise it would've been a candidate for the album.
Also, it's a bit deceiving to assure oneself that Bucket was needed in creating the song. Mind you now, the songs were all compiled from bits and pieces. Bucket could've recorded his solo a long time ago. However, the song, as it is, is very likely to stem from the 2003-5 period regardless. Axl may not be such a dim-witted producer after all.
#682 Re: Guns N' Roses » GNRevolution Exclusive! Classic Rock Feb Mag Cover! » 907 weeks ago
In the faint red light of the Rainbow Bar and Grill, Tom Zutaut sips at his drink and spills a bit of regret. It's been 19 years since he signed the then-unknown rock band Guns N' Roses to a contract with Geffen Records, where they turned into multiplatinum superstars. Back in those days, the Rainbow was their hangout of choice.
Years after he left the label, he returned in 2001 to try to coax Axl Rose, the band's magnetic leader and by then its only original member, into completing one of the most highly anticipated albums in the industry: an opus tentatively titled "Chinese Democacy." The deadline for turning in the album had passed two years earlier.
"I really thought I could get him to deliver the record," said Mr. Zutaut, who spent nine months trying. "And we got close."
He is speaking in relative terms. Mr. Zutaut is but one of a long series of executives and producers brought in over the years to try to conjure up the maddeningly elusive album - to cajole the reclusive rock star into composing, singing, recording, even just showing up. Like everyone else who had tried, or has tried since, Mr. Zutaut came away empty-handed. - NY Times
One of the main reasons why the NYT and CR articles mention covered the same ground is the obvious one; Zoot was interviewed for both articles, yet Jeff Leeds only used a direct quote from him as an opening hook. Moreover:
Mr. Rose appeared sporadically, some weeks just one or two days, some weeks not at all. "It was unorganized chaos," the same person said. "There was never a system to this. And in between, there were always parties to go to, different computers Axl was trying out or buying. There were times when we didn't record things for weeks."
So the studio technicians burned as many as five CD's per week with various mixes of different songs, which were driven to Malibu for Mr. Rose to study. The band's archive of recorded material swelled to include more than 1,000 digital audio tapes and other media, according to people who were there at the time, all elaborately labeled to chart the progress of songs. "It was like the Library of Congress in there," said one production expert who spent time on the album there.
By one count, the band kept roughly 20 songs it considered on the A list and another 40 or so in various stages of completion on the B list.
Leeds' article concurs that there were indeed roughly 60 separate songs in various stages of completion as early as in the Beavan era ('99). The song creating (I wouldn't use the term 'writing') started by late-night jams, and once there was enough material recorded, Axl would listen it through and pick things that'd sound good for him. What he was basically doing was being the guitar hero without having to master the instrument - just going through the impromptu parts and weeding out the cream of the crop. Then, by adding up and trying out different parts like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, something resembling actual song structures began to form. Remember, this was no garage band. It was Sean Beavan and a room full of seasoned studio technicians and sound engineers. Their job was to connect the dots with whatever Axl's sessions musicians made available to them, creating songs of which they'd have no idea how they'd sound like. Would they sound like radio-friendly hits, would they sound like songs at all? Try recreating 'the traditional GNR sound' by wandering in the dark to such a degree and you'll get an idea of the challenge Axl'd thrown to his crew.
The tragedy of CD is that it's Axl's solo album, the one he's been akin to do eversince the UYI days. But he never wanted that to replace what GNR was and represented to him and to others. Despite whatever difficulties he had with Slash and the others, he always wanted to have GNR to fall back into if the solo album stinks. But before he knew it, he was left alone with a recording agreement and Geffen breathing in his back, requesting the next GNR studio album. While Axl took up the challenge (along with the advance), he didn't have a clue on how to proceed. Slash, Izzy and Duff had always taken care of laying down the foundations to the songs (with songs like Estranged and November Rain serving as exceptions). While Axl undoubtedly had enough talent and experience to handle both the lyrics and vocals for a double-album without a hitch, writing one single GNR album on his own devices from the ground up was simply too daunting.
#683 Re: Guns N' Roses » GNRevolution Exclusive! Classic Rock Feb Mag Cover! » 907 weeks ago
I don't know why one shouldn't believe Tom Zutaut. First off, the man was there. Secondly, one needs to look at what was happening with the band during Zoot's era (between RIR3 and the Vegas gigs). Remember now that by comparison, this is relatively short time frame in the entire saga and Zoot's comments should be regarded first and foremost as a snapshot of that particular time. Not saying things had been remotely different before and/or after he was around, but he's wisely focusing on times he actually spent there.
Almost immediately after RIR3, at which all things GNR looked positive, Axl's machine grinded into a sudden halt. The album was promised to be released in June and now was the time to bend down and finish the job. Almost right after giving some positive interviews during his South American holiday, Axl returned to the studio and found himself unable to get the job done.
The previous A&R man, Bob Ezrin, who likely got the job in the first place for being notoriously critical towards the songs worked on with mainly Sean Beavan, had been shown the door by February 2001. Ezrin's era could be timed for around mid 2000 - late'00/early '01. Judging by Zoot's comments, Axl'd been out of touch with the album for the last six months or so, which amusingly coincides with the time Ezrin'd had most likely worked with the band. Not a stretch to imagine that Ezrin had made Axl lose confidence altogether, as the work poured into the album in between '98-00 had produced "three good songs". With Axl taking an increasingly hands-off approach, Buckethead wasn't hitting it off with RTB, and was seriously reconsidering his relationship to the band.
This was when Jimmy Iovine first approached Zoot. Live performances and a subsequent vacation hadn't helped Axl to relax and get his act together. Interscope obviously sought after a more mellow mediator, and hoped to find one in Zoot.
Zoot appeared like a breath of fresh air, the jolt Axl needed. In late February '01, tour dates in the UK and elsewhere started to trickle in. Things were seemingly looking good again, as the album might've made it for June. Come May, and trouble started again. Things just weren't seemingly working out with RTB, no matter that the band worked day and night in a studio setting.
05/10/01: GNR cancels the European tour, due to Buckethead's "internal haemorhagging". "An album, Chinese Democracy, has been underway for six years and is currently thought to be in the final mixing stages. Although Interscope, the band's label, has consistently declined to guess at a release date, the most recent speculation had the album out this summer, although that no longer appears to be the case."
05/30/01: European tour is rescheduled for December. In a summer interview, Beta would confirm the band would return to Brazil in early '02. With the Vegas gigs in the new year, it's certainly feasible a North American leg of the tour was eventually pencilled for January '02.
The album was delayed for unforeseen reasons from its Summer '01 release date, and was now pushed back six months to become a pre-Christmas release.
06/30/01: "Contrary to the popular rumor, Axl Rose has not fired manager Doug Goldstein of Big F.D., although they are "taking a break from each other." According to Goldstein, no legal steps have been taken to dissolve their relationship. He admits that the pair did have (yet another) falling-out over touring issues, but he expects that this one, like the others, will be long gone by the time Rose and crew hit the European circuit in December to make up for last May's canceled dates.
When told of Goldstein's comments, our source was not surprised. "I think Axl knows Doug is the only one who will put up with him," said our source.
Goldstein is promising that the new Guns N' Roses album, Chinese Democracy, will come out, and confirms that legendary A&R rep Tom Zutaut, the man who signed GNR to Geffen back in 1987, is being brought on board to make sure it will get done."
07/26/01: MTV Brazil reports Buckethead has left the band.
08/02/01: Buckethead alledgedly returns to the negotiating table with the band.
Tension, anyone? Ol' Dougie had a fallout with Axl over touring issues; ironically after he'd just rescheduled the band's European trek. Bucket had enough as well, which was seemingly the second time during the whole project already. This looks like the time when Axl decided there was "negative energy" surrounding the band and took Zoot with him to see Yoda.
10/12/01: Buckethead had returned to the fold (according to Zoot), but was considering alternate career options with the US military.
10/23/01: Buckethead is still in the band, he tried to quit but Axl talked him into coming back. On the condition that he only has to play/record with the band 3 days a week.
They are in the still in the studio recording two full albums, so when they finally release the first one, they can tour for a year and then release another one without going back into the studio. There won't be a tour this year.
Zoot's story holds a good deal of water, as Bucket had been said to have issues with someone in the band; never before had the fingers been pointed towards RTB.
Tom Zutaut was fired in the advance screening of Ridley Scott's Black Hawk Down. The film premiered on 12/18/01, which means Zoot didn't last a year in the project. RTB and Axl would soldier on for a month or two before parting ways. Soon, Merck would step into the house to see what's what.
A response...
Mysteron wrote:As far as I am aware, alot of the work for CD took place in the last few years, post the Zutaut era. That makes the Classic Rock article nothing more than tabloid blood for the gossip vampires.
It does indeed appear the bulk of the recordings that'd actually appear on the album have been completed in 2003-5, with some additional recording done in '06 and '07. The songs have pretty much remained the same, but they've been re-recorded with Axl as the producer.
As far as the 'tabloid blood for gossip vampires' line goes, I believe Zoot's description is a fair and honest account of what happened within the band during 2001. It's seven years old stuff, but seems accurate enough regardless.
SIC must be on vacation or is prepping a 32 page master thesis on all this.:haha:
Well, now that you mentioned it...
#684 Re: Guns N' Roses » GNRevolution Exclusive! Classic Rock Feb Mag Cover! » 907 weeks ago
I, for one, dig the heading of that article. 
Eversince the NYT piece I've been anxiously waiting for Zutaut to spill the beans; I always had a gut feeling he had some good stuff to share.
#685 Re: Guns N' Roses » Chinese Democracy's Fate » 908 weeks ago
Good one.
I believe he may have a grand vision in the sense that he has an idea of what he wants the album and the band to be. However, it's a well-known fact he was pretty clueless after Izzy and Slash'd left... for a long time. He started having visions about the concept only after the album began to form. A little by little, he started heading towards the trilogy idea, so I think that's something he picked up along the way.
Furthermore, I don't see it necessary to be an Axlite to say that back in the day, Axl had an idea about what GNR should be, and the others had a differing opinion. Izzy was the first to extricate himself simply because he got tired of the general atmosphere and Axl's views; Slash and Duff weren't exactly yes-men on a lot of things either.
To put it short: CD is Axl's album, and it will be viewed as something that Axl sought so persistently, that he willingly alienated his original band mates. Unless it delivers, he'll be blamed for it more than ever. Unfortunately both the expectations and the production time grown so much out of proportion that Axl himself has had to admit 'it's only an album'.
#686 Re: Guns N' Roses » Chinese Democracy's Fate » 908 weeks ago
We already know the potential of the 01 lineup.
We have been given a glimpse with tracks such as The Blues and TWAT, but Axl's still to give the public something truly epic, which would raise them on top of the old band. There's a possibility even bigger guns exists, but not so much as a note of them has been heard publically. No matter how you'll slice it, Axl's smart enough to feed the masses only with guns 'big enough', with the sole intention of raising public interest on the body of the work, which would be fully unveiled as the album is released. Think of it in the lines of releasing the first 20 minutes of A Scanner Darkly or The Devil's Rejects online as free, extended teasers. You'll get the idea of what the story's about, get into the premise and realize the overall mood. The minute you're really getting soaked into it, the teaser ends and you're left with en masse of could-be potential, promises of coming attractions, which, in comparison, would leave anything you've just experienced a mere trifle when considering the opus as a whole, as an overture which grabs your attention yet overshadows the crescendo is a failed one. Any proper film, novel or a musical piece is an artistic journey, which leads one from one place to another, and during this time subjects one to emotional and intellectual stimuli, afterwhich one "walks away from the party, stunned, and awakes in the next morning a sadder man and wiser man", as Coleridge put it.
Fortunately Axl isn't a classical composer. There's hardly a person in the Western world who hasn't heard the sonata allegro of Beethoven's Fifth, but how many people can claim to listened the whole of the work? A case-in-point example of situations in which the most oft-played part (I stress the fact that it's merely a faction) becomes synonymous to the whole, and because of this, somewhat devalues of the whole in which it has been implemented to. It's a difficult situation. I'm not particularly comparing Axl to Beethoven in terms of musical achievement or overall talent, but am somewhat against the radio-culture of the end of the 20th century, which coined whole albums on singles best suited for mass consumption. One aspect by which Axl might be eligible to be compared to the musical heavyweights of history is his undeniable dedication, which began to surface as he grew out of the initial glam rock mould and started to push the envelope of his own musical direction. Unfortunately for him, the UYI's suffered from the internal turmoil already developing within the group, and he himself admitted people were 'blackmailing' each other in order to get them on their songs. The sessions in '96 were seemingly on the other end of the spectrum, to try and make a classic rock album with hard, short and angry songs, with a "no ballads" approach, a decision which was definetly either an appeasement effort by Axl or a direct jab from the rest of the band directed straight at him.
CD will stand as a state evidence as to whether Axl truly has the musical range to justify going on it alone, or whether the old band, while generally feeling uncomfortable in stepping out of their comfort zone, would've done just as well in supporting him. One can say many things about players such as Robin and Bucket, but one can hardly blame them for being too conventional, while Slash, a noteworthy lead guitarist on his own right, is still self-admittedly more a one-trick pony. Axl built a new group from the ground up for a reason, seeking out people that would be compensate his personal ambitions. While we're not going to get an album full of November Rains, Axl's still the one to face the music. If the new album fails to bring out (or top) what has so far been considered the best of Axl in terms of musical direction and lyrics, it'll unfortunately be deemed a failure, as the price was the communication breakdown with the rest of the old band, which, to his credit, was already well into coming off at the seams.
So no, I don't think we know the whole of their potential. We've been merely led to imagine what could be on the basis of what has been so far.
#687 Re: Guns N' Roses » Chinese Democracy's Fate » 908 weeks ago
It isn't finished until it leaks in full or is available for purchase. While it might be finished for real this time, I wouldn't wager money on it. In the GNR world, something can go from finished to unfinished in the blink of an eye.
Wasn't it Jim Cameron who said films aren't finished, they're abandoned? The same analogy could be used on CD; it'll be finished once Axl will stop working on it. None of the leaks are "finished" tracks, despite they can be downloaded from numerous p2p networks. OMG isn't a "finished" track in Axl's mind, even though it's widely available on the End of Days soundtrack.
Currently, it appears Axl has an album consisting of 13 tracks, on which he doesn't do any more work. Therefore, the album is currently finished (in other words, 'abandoned'). If there are delays or if Axl finds it hard to sell his concept of the modern GNR sound to Universal, he may have second thoughts about the work laid down so far, and takes steps to work on it some more.
The album was almost finished in late '99. The album was almost finished again in early/mid '00. Again almost in early '02. Almost in '06. It's a question of creating something one personally thinks lives up to both internal and external expectations. The more time a finished is allowed to sit on a shelf for whatever reason, the more any sense of accomplishment will dry out, dissatisfaction occurs, new ideas arise. Releasing it and getting over it was the advice Moby once gave Axl, and it's actually a good one. But Axl can't go back and release something that was perfected and finalized 6-8 years ago.
The bulk of the currently used recordings are from 2003-4 era, with most of 2005 spent with alternative mixes, etc. Much of the music obviously predates that period, but the album(s) that'll eventually surface is most likely to consist of recordings made after the '02 tour. As Axl himself took over the producing duties in early '02, there less of a chance for the project to be completely rebooted at this point, as he no longer has to start reworking somebody else's work. Sean Beavan inherited a mish-mash of recordings made at The Complex and Rumbo Recoders with Mike Clink, Youth and Moby in attendance. Roy Thomas Baker inherited Beavan's album with Buckethead to be included on it, before schratching everything (Bob Ezrin, please stand up) and starting again. Axl inherited RTB's album before scratching it and starting again.
"I don't want to be in a situation again where I have to depend on other people and have [to] start all over." - Axl, 1999
Unfortunately, whenever you collaborate with a producer for several years, the material will carry his mark long after he himself is gone. Subsequent producers are somewhat limited in terms of contributing their own ideas, as they have to keep an eye on what's been done before and have to amalgamate their own handywork into a framework which by then has already been worked into a near-finished product with his predecessor. Therefore, the fact of Axl producing brings much-needed continuity into the project as the only way for him to be disbanded would be the record company seizing the masters and releasing an album on their own.
While the album can currently still slide back to mixing stage (or god forbid, recording), it is reasonable to doubt the whole of the work would be scrapped again. Times have changed. Axl no longer possesses the production machine and unlimited financial resources he once had, he's not getting any younger and meanwhile the record industry has been through a lot since the introduction of Napster. Currently, the industry is waking up to ask themselves the dreaded question; "Are physical discs an obsolete medium?"
A little-known fact is that Axl, inadvertently, perfected the Radiohead release route by leaking bits and pieces of the the album and allowing people to 'support' by enabling them to attend shows and buy merchandise. If you like the music, you'll go see them and buy the shirt. The label doesn't get a dollar for it. With touring and merchandise already becoming more profitable to recording artists than the actual record sales, such an approach brings the future of Axl (along with many others) to the hands of the fans. Further recording into the years to come takes money, and the only way Axl gets such amounts to the war chest anymore is through touring. The only (usual) continent they haven't been to recently is South America, as Oceania, Europe and NA are currently a bit oversaturated for another retro event by the new band.
But if you think about it, the leaks are the ideal clandestine preview to get people into 'sponsoring' CD. By supporting the tour, you'll get a Greatest Hits show with a few of new tracks thrown in, and contribute into the mixing and mastering expenses of the finished versions of the said leaks.
I just don't see the point in the saga continuing past 08 if an album hasn't materialized.
A new leak would help. Something big enough to prove without a shadow of a doubt whatever potential lied within the chiefly-recording lineup (i.e. the '01 tour lineup).
#688 Re: Guns N' Roses » Chinese Democracy's Fate » 908 weeks ago
Would also like to say that if it cant be released this year, I hope Axl scraps the project.
Why scrap an album, which is finished, and a project to which he's invested nearly 14 years of his life? What currently holds CD are problems with Universal, which isn't entirely Axl's fault (though he hasn't made things any easier for himself with the continous delays and his refusal to play ball with them in any shape or form during the project's hey-day). Geffen's currently in a rather unhealthy place and Trent Reznor, among other people, has voiced disdain over the general policies of Interscope. So they're not the easiest parties to deal with in the current situation, and Axl might face a good deal of prejudice when showing up to talk business.
CD is not a non-existent album. The best bet for scrapping the project (with consequently and probably reuniting with the old band) in GNR history could've been the release of OMG and the reception it got. During his major rethink over musical directions, Axl might've been forthcoming to the idea of reintroducing the old band to the fold. However, as can be read from the interviews at the time, he wasn't on the same wavelength as Izzy back then. (downliner, you remember that Izzy interview where he talks about ringing Axl's doorbell? It's from '01, I think.)
Late '99 was probably the best bet we had for a complete reboot, as Slash was still on a loose end, publically stating that he's still one phone call away from Axl. VR hadn't yet happened and nobody had completely closed to door on Axl. But Axl himself wasn't ready to face them, and all he had was this one project, through which he had alienated a lot of people from the halcyon days. Scrapping it mean acknowledging defeat, so it wasn't an option. Not even after the dismantling of the '02 tour could've Axl given up, as both on and off-stage he still seemed bitter about the way certain people of the old had treated him.
When people continously blame you for breaking "the biggest band in the world", you might start to think the only thing that'll save your ass is to provide them something they may consider "the greatest rock album of all time". Fortunately, eversince re-emerging Axl's appeared far more lucid than in the years before, willingly admitting that "it's just an album".
To answer the question, I can't pick one single option. It'll leak eventually, but I tend to think it'll also be released eventually. Meanwhile, I wouldn't lose one nights sleep over it.
#689 Re: Management » Taking the site forward.... » 908 weeks ago
When I get myself back into high gear, I'll recreate the ancient history thread I made concerning CD back in the day, starting from '94 and spanning all the way to '02, atleast.
Would be nice have that stuff stashed in someplace (I should've made backups myself, I know).
#690 Re: The Garden » What are you like? » 908 weeks ago
Your answers suggest you are a Leader
The four aspects that make up this personality type are:
Planner, Ideas, Heads, Extrovert
Summary of Leaders
* Natural managers who strive for efficiency
* See the big picture and make strategic plans for the future
* Think of themselves as bright, independent and logical
* May overlook other people's need for emotional support
More about Leaders
Leaders are strategic thinkers, planning ahead and anticipating difficulties. They quickly spot inefficiency and organise people to make improvements. Leaders like solving problems at the organisational level, but would rather leave the detailed work to others.
Leaders are most likely to say they enjoy their job, according to a UK survey.
Leaders enjoy discussing complex issues and will challenge people's views to spark a debate. They admire people who defend their beliefs by arguing persuasively.
In situations where they can't use their talents or are unappreciated, Leaders may become detached, critical or aggressive. Under extreme stress, Leaders may feel isolated and doubt their abilities.
Leaders are often so ambitious in their careers that they sacrifice their personal life in the process.
Leader Careers
Leaders are often drawn to jobs in management where logical analysis and strategic planning are required.
It's important to remember that no survey can predict personality type with 100 percent accuracy. Experts say that we should use personality type to better understand ourselves and others, but shouldn't feel restricted by our results.
Leaders are most likely to say they enjoy their job, according to a UK survey.
Heavy lies the crown, believe me.
