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#721 Re: Guns N' Roses » Universal Definitely Got Most If Not All Their Money Back » 911 weeks ago
Sic, we are definitely pissing in the wind...BUT, Merck's comment on this issue on 12-15-06, coupled with reading the document I posted, suggests I am right about no negotiations since 1998.
Merck...12-15-06
"The record company refused to conclude the renegotiation until we were ready to hand over the finished album and refused to prepare a marketing campaign or commission video treatments until they had it in their hands. This is still their position as of this week."
First off, what we're "arguing" about here is a moot point in the big picture. It boils down to semantics. I've always read the Merck comment in the sense that GNR would have to renegotiate the finer points regarding CD's release after the cut of funding in 2004. Obviously, had Axl played ball in/by 2003, the old contract (with whatever amendments it contained from 05/01/98 onwards) would've remained valid on all points. Now I fear Universal is able to push Axl's people to review their end of the deal before the release.
if something significant would have happened between May 98 and Dec 2003, the legal brief would have mentioned it because it would have been an alteration to the contract that they based their entire lawsuit on!
It's certainly looks to be the most important sole amendment from that time period. Just saying there might some subsequent alterations, that's all. The wording of the lawsuit doesn't exclude such a possibility.
Anyway, the facts in the case as they currently stand are that no new deal was struck with the label regarding CD's release in all of 2006. When considering that alongside the fact that Ron was hired 2-3 weeks before the '06 tour (late April, probably), the picture that begins to form is that GNR was on very thin ice when embarking on a tour and maintaining that the album would come during that very same calendar year. RIR4 was cancelled two months ahead, officially due to Bucket's resignation. Now they went up to the last two weeks before hiring a replacement while the record remained unfinished (with 5-6 studio days left for Axl), and renegotiations were still in a flux.
They were definetly pushing it to reach the European festival season, with the expense of everything else.
#722 Re: Guns N' Roses » Universal Definitely Got Most If Not All Their Money Back » 912 weeks ago
According to UNI/Geffen, as of May 2004, the last contract renegotiations occurred on 5-1-1998.
Dear sir, while I do agree with you on many things you've said in this thread, I must stress that the 05/01/98 was not indisputably the latest contract revision as of early 2004. In the legal document it was merely singled out as the most significant one after the '92 amendment, in which Axl, Slash and Duff were confirmed as sole controllers of the back catalog.
It's also been noted on the All Music Guide review that the remastering on this album is not notable.
The re-mastering is non-existent, actually. The GH lawsuit was based on the erroneous assumption that the recordings were tampered with without the direct consent of Axl, Slash and/or Duff. One of the main reasons they lost was because of this - not to mention the information was retrieved from a website(!) in the first place.
As has also been pointed out in this thread, GH and CD are two completely different beasts.
Geffen were within their rights to release GH, and they would've gotten atleast the same revenue out of it even if CD would've come out within a reasonable timeframe. I'd say that GH doesn't or didn't have as much to do with the CD saga as one might think, although they're certainly intertwined. More synchronicity than causality.
To understand Geffen's insistence to put out a GNR release in that particular time in the first place, one must look at the situation in which they were in. All n' all, I maintain it was part of the boards marketing plan when Geffen was relaunched as a fully-fledged label and they basically needed to line up all the impeding big guns in their roster. GNR was at the top of the list, as it had been for nearly a decade. See long post here.
Geffen punished Axl for the delays by cutting his funding, not by putting out GH. However, I'm afraid all this pissing in the wind made it very difficult for Axl to ask for any sort of benefits from the label in subsequent negotiations, no matter how good his music is.
#723 Re: Guns N' Roses » Mick Wall's Latest "Chinese Democracy" Mention » 912 weeks ago
I've never been much of a Mick Wall fan either and the more he talks, it becomes pretty obvious he doesn't know much. He just says general shit that you can find on any GNR forum. Hell, he probably reads(or posts) at these sites.
While he may have known things in the past, he never offers up any new tidbits of information. Its always shit we've all talked about before.
Mick Wall's situation is slightly two-fold, I think. On one hand his (past) relationship with Axl provides a good stepping stone to write about him, which equals meal-ticket, publishing contract, etc. On the other hand, he seems a bit obsessed with Axl, putting out piece after piece of turds in a tux. Wall is basically a competent writer, and he can write a serviceable text with information available through unorthodox sources such as the boards, and he's also seasoned enough to know most of his readers want the dirt on Axl. Mick Wall's elevator doesn't go too high with anyone remotely relevant within Axl's circles nowadays, which is why he just alludes to have interviewed various people, but in reality, is merely reading things up and rearranging the syntax to provide for an inside view.
Think he spoke to Tom Zutaut before writing this, for one?
Tom Zutaut knew what to expect as his car crowned a steep hill and drew up before the vast Malibu mansion. [Description on Axl's house] Zutaut had been here before, often. This was the first time he wished he could melt into the safe anonymity of the album-clutching fans; he was anxious about the confrontation to come and expected the worst. His instincts had not deserted him - as it turned out, he was proved absolutely right.
[...] Zutaut's arrival at the mansion was the last throw of the dice by a desperate record company. For Universal Music, Chinese Democracy - the working title of the album - should have been a safe bet.
[...] And so Universal had now turned to the very man who had created the Guns N' Roses phenomenon in the first place: Zutaut had even been offered a 30 per cent bonus if he could get Rose to finish the album. Zutaut had seen off stiff competition in 1986 to sign Guns N' Roses (he scuppered rival A&Rs by misinforming them the band were appalling live), and presided over their rise to fame, launching the biggest-selling debut album of all time, Appetite For Destruction. He had masterminded the success of the record by begging MTV to play the video of the single Welcome To The Jungle when sales of the album started to level out at just 200,000.
[...] Zutaut stood in Rose's huge entrance hall, reflecting on the fact that the star had already been through eight producers and 20 musicians. Things had gone beyond the decadent madness of even the infamous Beach Boys' Smile project (started in 1966; released in 2004).
[...] And as Zutaut took in the sight around him, his heart must have sunk. How was he ever going to persuade the singer to make music again? I know exactly how Zutaut must have felt, because I have known Rose well.
[...] By the time Zutaut arrived on the scene in 2001, Rose was back '˜working' on Chinese Democracy.
[...] As well as Zutaut, Universal also signed up former Queen producer Roy Thomas Baker. [Some history] By Christmas 2001, with Chinese Democracy still no nearer to completion, Zutaut and Baker were both fired by Rose.
Pay attention to Wall's wording and you'll notice he's just namedropping Zutaut while mentioning events based of public knowledge. Zutaut went to see Axl in 2001 after Interscope had hired him as the A&R man; he must've felt he had a hard task ahead in getting Axl release music. Talk about investigative journalism worthy of 60 Minutes, Mick. Nothing in the piece has Wall falling into the old trap of putting words into Zutaut's mouth, and nothing suggests they've spoken about the latter's time with Axl. It's just another smokescreen for an experienced writer to appear knowledgeable and at the same time, avoid hassles with people close to Axl by saying he never lied, he just read about all this on the internet or whatever.
#724 Re: Guns N' Roses » Another cash grab tour? - Rumored Brazil tour first half of 2008 » 912 weeks ago
madagas wrote:I still believe he should have never unveiled the new band until he had an album on the shelves.
If that was the case, it'd still be deafening silence.
If things had worked out back in 2001, we would've had an album about six months after RIR3. Had they stuck with that plan, RIR3 would've been seen as an excellent move.
I think the band as musicians can stand on their own merit just by how they play the old songs, the solos on stage and the CD songs that have been played on tour. To those that say they have no merit what so ever, is a bit harsh IMO.
Didn't say they have no merit. I can give them merit as a professional live band, but it would be harder for me to consider as the next phase in GNR's legacy, simply because the album's not out yet.
Not to mention Frank, Ron and likely Richard play nothing but songs they've never had a hand in writing. Not their fault, but just how it is.
#725 Re: Guns N' Roses » Another cash grab tour? - Rumored Brazil tour first half of 2008 » 912 weeks ago
Figured I'd throw in my $0.02.
what all you people who complain about this band touring as Guns N' Roses and not releasing the album, there is one thing you dont' understand. These shows (at least the ones I was at) are all a POSITIVE experience for the majority of people who are actually there.
Well, I saw in the summer of 2006 and up to a degree I do understand where you're coming from. Even without their two technically most prominent players, they're still a heck of a live band. It's obvious they how to play, they like to play - and like to doing it together. Therefore, they're a professional live band in my book.
But that's just the problem.
I seriously liked the opportunity of finally seeing the band live, but their performance didn't help the fact that I'd really like to have an album featuring these guys (+Brain & Bucket) backing Axl. I know that the GNR as we knew it back in 1987, 1991 or even 1993 doesn't exist anymore, but I can't help having a hard time seeing these guys as a proper continuation of the legacy without an album. If they'd have an album, good, bad, or lukewarm, I'd recognize them as musicians writing and releasing music under the GNR name, which would automatically make them the next phase in the band's history in my book. But without an album, they don't have anything tangible to link themselves to the GNR name in the eyes of anyone outside the hardcore fanbase. If Joe Q Public walks into a music store, all GNR-related material he can still get features people who've been out of the band for a decade or more.
I like this band, and I'd like it to have an identity as GNR. I'm not talking about Finck or Tommy claiming a Slash-like status of recognizability; plainly having an albums worth of officially released music for mass consumption would be a good start, as then people would have to live with the fact that they are GNR now, regardless of whether they'd feel like it. At the moment however, they're unfortunately identified as Axl's backing band that never does/gets much press, as the main attraction is the frontman. The fact that they play mostly material done before their time doesn't help in this particular matter.
That's why I'd resent the idea of the band touring without an album. I'd like to see them stand on their own feet as musicians, as a group, instead of relying on songs written twenty years ago. This is the reason why it was frustrating to me to see them tour another year without an album, with no more new songs than the last I saw them. While I appreciate the fact that Axl can never outrun the memory of AFD, it's not the album I'd like to remember this current band by.
They're always fun to see, but they're better than just some guys that Axl needs to play Out Ta Get Me for the umpteenth time. I'm sure a lot of people would come to terms with this if only the album would come out.
#726 Re: Guns N' Roses » the Madagascar Quotes » 912 weeks ago
One thing about the samples is that once you list all the separate sources, you'll there aren't that many after all.
Mississippi Burning
Cool Hand Luke
Se7en
Casualties of War
Braveheart
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Why Jesus Called A Man A Fool
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., I Have A Dream
To put it bluntly, most (if not all) films above depict an individual persevering through troubled times, while challenging the powers that be by having the courage to think different. There's always a near overpowering oppressor threatening the individual, be it racism (Mississippi Burning), prison (Cool Hand Luke), a psycho killer in a jaded community (Se7en), or war (Casualties of War, Braveheart). While thematically the films here aren't exactly groundbreaking, the ways certain things are expressed in them must've appealed to Axl on a personal level, which is why he's chosen this relatively small amount of sources to pull the material from.
Both Axl's lyrics and the sample montage feature a distinct personality. While Axl announces that 'I won't be told anymore', his polyphonic other half in the montage begins by saying 'I'm gonna tell you a story'. I wouldn't dare reading too much into the mindset of Axl or anyone else closely associated to the song, but to me Axl and the montage carry separate, yet intertwined narrators. One could see Axl's character as someone who feels he's been mistreated and betrayed, resulting in self-imposed exile from the world. Right before the montage, he confesses that he's been spending time self-reflecting and has reached a conclusion, which apparently enables him to forgive those, who hurt him and return to the world he'd fled.
On the very moment of inspiration the montage personality sets in. It could be described as the Axl characters soul, a train of thought, what have you. He addresses the Axl character, telling him to stand up for what he believes instead of letting unfortunate circumstances weight him down. The Axl character, whom I believe is the same personality as the one in the lyrics, is confused by this epiphany and questions the montage personality, whom initially confines himself to the voice of Martin Luther King. His own disposition start to waiver as he realizes that his prevailing emotions are hatred and fear. A motherly voice says that no-one is born with hatred, as it is something you pick up along the way. Therefore, the Axl character should still have an element of virtue within him, and by savoring that element he can right his wrongs.
The Axl character finally confesses to being afraid after what's happened to him. In the final moment of frustration, he tries to shield himself from further 'attacks' by claiming he was in a bad situation where everybody were doing bad things to one another, and that it should be considered a common trait. At the same time, the inner voice coaxes him to abandon his fears, which finally results as an emancipation.
As far as the Martin Luther King sermons go, I might include a little something from 'Why Jesus Called a Man a Fool'.
I want to share with you a dramatic little story from the gospel as recorded by Saint Luke. It is a story of a man who by all standards (Yes, Speak, doc, speak) of measurement would be considered a highly successful man. (Yes) And yet Jesus called him a fool. (Yes) If you will read that parable, you will discover that the central character in the drama is a certain rich man. (Yes) This man was so rich that his farm yielded tremendous crops. (Yes) In fact, the crops were so great that he didn't know what to do. It occurred to him that he had only one alternative and that was to build some new and bigger barns so he could store all of his crops. (Yes) And then as he thought about this, he said, "Then I'm going to do something after I build my new and bigger barns." He said, "I'm going to store my goods and my fruit there, and then I'm going to say to my soul, '˜Soul, thou hast much goods, laid up for many years. Take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.'" (Yes) That brother thought that was the end of life. (All right)
But the parable doesn't end with that man making his statement. (My Lord) It ends by saying that God said to him, (Yes) "Thou fool. (Yes) Not next year, not next week, not tomorrow, but this night, (Yes) thy soul is required of thee." (Yes)
And so it was at the height of his prosperity he died. Look at that parable. (Yes) Think about it. (Yes) Think of this man: If he lived in Chicago today, he would be considered "a big shot." (My Lord) And he would abound with all of the social prestige and all of the community influence that could be afforded. (Yes) Most people would look up to him because he would have that something called money. (Yes) And yet a Galilean peasant had the audacity to call that man a fool. (Yes)
[...]
I'd like for you to look at this parable with me and try to decipher the real reason that Jesus called this man a fool. Number one, Jesus called this man a fool because he allowed the means by which he lived to outdistance the ends for which he lived. (Yes) You see, each of us lives in two realms, the within and the without. (Yeah) Now the within of our lives is that realm of spiritual ends expressed in art, literature, religion, and morality. The without of our lives is that complex of devices, of mechanisms and instrumentalities by means of which we live. The house we live in'”that's a part of the means by which we live. The car we drive, the clothes we wear, the money that we are able to accumulate'”in short, the physical stuff that's necessary for us to exist. (My Lord)
Now the problem is that we must always keep a line of demarcation between the two. (My Lord) This man was a fool because he didn't do that. (Yes)
[...]
Now number two, this man was a fool because he failed to realize his dependence on others. (Yes) Now if you read that parable in the book of Luke, you will discover that this man utters about sixty words. And do you know in sixty words he said "I" and "my" more than fifteen times? (My Lord) This man was a fool because he said "I" and "my" so much until he lost the capacity to say "we" and "our." (Yes) He failed to realize that he couldn't do anything by himself. This man talked like he could build the barns by himself, like he could till the soil by himself. And he failed to realize that wealth is always a result of the commonwealth.
[...]
Finally, this man was a fool because he failed to realize his dependence on God. (Yeah) Do you know that man talked like he regulated the seasons? That man talked like he gave the rain to grapple with the fertility of the soil. (Yes) That man talked like he provided the dew. He was a fool because he ended up acting like he was the Creator, (Yes) instead of a creature. (Amen)
If the sermon struck a chord with Axl, he might've considered himself as literally the rich man, who'd become estranged of his former self, the artist that built the house in which the wealthy hermit resided. In that sense, the song could be considered as Axl looking back at his times with the former band, and how he developed an image of a spoiled brat with a rock star tag, and why the band fell due to infighting. There's likely more into the situation than that, as Axl might be throwing a jab at all the people who willingly lifted him to the top of the heap, secretly hoping for his downfall.
In the long run, fame did little favors to Axl. At the height of the band's popularity, Izzy left. The Making of Don't Cry is a good reminder of how alone Axl felt at the time, as he realized he couldn't connect with one of his best friends anymore. Right before the GNR hiatus in '93, he'd publicly hoped that he'd finally have some time to settle down and enjoy life with Stephanie and her infant son. The other family would be GNR, with Slash and Duff. Once he'd finally lost all those around him during the halcyon days, Axl might've felt a retreat is in order, and it is this (assumed) mental state against which I consider Madagascar.
#727 Re: Guns N' Roses » Can interest (in Chinese Democracy) be regained? » 913 weeks ago
I'm personally hoping that if/when the album is released, we could all just go back into being normal fans again. You know, the kind of people who get served new music, tour dates, live videos, news updates... The kind of people who hang around for the meat instead of the filler.
But to answer the question, tours aren't interesting anymore. During the European / US tours in '06, the message boards were red-hot with realtime setlist updates and whatnot. During the Oceanic tour in '07, we had none of that. There was no new album, no new special song to be heard.
A new release date letter would be... interesting, to say the least, as it would be Axl communicating with the fanbase again. It would certainly hold a degree of entertainment value and some people would be sure to check out the date given - just like some people occasionally fall for those end of the world dates. But it would take a lot more than a letter to convince most people.
A new single release, or without an album, a new officially released track like OMG, would be nice, but it would have to something we haven't heard before. I doubt people'd go apeshit for a new mix of Madagascar (now with cowbell) and nothing more.
A leak would be very nice. It'd have to be a wholly new song, like Sorry. That'd be nice. In early '06, in between Axl's smalltalk with Rolling Stone and the announcement of new tour dates, the Better/TWAT/IRS leaks were a breath of fresh air, making everybody and his brother ridiculously giddy about the prospect of an album. If, and only if, things would move on rather quickly after the leaks, most would be made out of their impact.
An album release with all the standard accessories, such as a single, a music video, a photo shoot, interviews, appearances, et al would be... about five or six years overdue.
#728 Re: Guns N' Roses » Questions » 913 weeks ago
I'm not talking about Scott being involved. I mean the band. The guys who everyone refuses to let go because they're the "real GNR" in their eyes. In my opinion they don't sound as good as the current lineup of Guns N' Roses playing the same songs.
I was talking about the band.
They sound a whole lot different than Axl's new band.
Based on their sound when compared to the new lineup (when doing the same songs), I wouldn't want Axl to reunite with the old band.
Did you not reach the same conclusion?
#729 Re: The Sunset Strip » Jessica Simpson film grosses $384 at the Box Office » 913 weeks ago
$48 per screen works out to about 6 people per theater.
sic. wrote:This means it averaged on $300 / day.
There's a big difference between $30,000 and $384!!!
We're talking daily averages per screen here.
There's less of a difference between $48 and $300, while the rift does remain notable. More comparable numbers should be received after the holidays, depending the film will continue to screen. After three days, the average's actually $55 (which is still dreadfully low, but not too surprising considering it opened in the midst of the holidays and presuming it got nil advertising).
My point is and remains, even a good movie (which I doubt anything related to Jessica Simpson could be) can do horrible box-office without proper promotion and a limited release.
#730 Re: Guns N' Roses » Questions » 913 weeks ago
I personally find the new band to be great. I think they do a better job on the GNR tunes then VR does, that's for damn sure.
To me, that's apples and oranges. The songs VR tends to cover (Brownstone, ISE) are the ones that are within Scott's range; he would make himself a certifiable idiot should he try to replicate Axl's great big screams. I'm not that fond of Scott, but I have to admit, he's not that bad fronting VR on those low-register Axl songs. The band lets Scott go easy, and the performance lies on the amazing groove Slash, Duff and Matt are still able to create.
As for Axl's current band, in comparison they sound heavier. While VR comes off as this slick guitar-driven rock band, Axl's GNR sounds pretty damn colossal, with this huge overall sound custom-built for arenas. It's hard not to get excited while watching Axl push himself to match the sheer volume of the live band. That, I think, is the philosophical difference in between VR and (current) GNR; Slash and Duff play it safe in a lot of ways, and while their talent and chemistry are unquestionable, neither Scott or the new original material seem to jolt them enough to really put themselves on the line.
While Axl's band may sound a bit clunkier, including everything and the kitchen sink with two keyboard players in the mix, they do match his voice better. To me, both bands actually sound like their frontmen, which is why I'd be wary about a reunion taking place anytime soon. Slash and Duff would either pick up the pace or Axl'd need to pipe down, and I can't see either option happening in the immediate future.
