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#722 Re: Guns N' Roses » Oh My God and the Thesis of Chinese Democracy » 423 weeks ago

-Jack- wrote:

I really enjoyed the RIR3 OMG. Shame there's no studio version of that track!

Bucket fucking with Axl by doing his robot dance and Axl coming in late on the first verse as a result because he's laughing makes me happy whenever I think about it.

But also very sad when I think about what could've been.

Yes, I would love as much Buckethead on Chinese Democracy as possible. It'd be nice to have such a track.

#724 Guns N' Roses » The Old Man and The Sea » 423 weeks ago

esoterica
Replies: 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQrxcAJo-SA

Axl wrote:

One of the influences was Hemingway's "Old Man and The Sea"... (France, 05/12)

https://youtu.be/oU_hFp5pM9Q?t=7m35s

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The Old Man and the Sea is the last published work by renown author Ernest Hemingway before his suicide in 1961.

The short story follows an old, experienced fisherman named Santiago who is down on his luck. After not hauling in a fish for 84 days, he's branded as "salao" by his peers, the worst form of unlucky. He's so untouchable that even his young apprentice Manolin is forbidden by his parents from going out to sea with him lest he befall a similar fate.

Yet despite his empty stomach and the castigation of his peers, the old man remains steadfast in his hopes of an even greater bounty. In his estimation, what he lacks in luck he will make up in craft and he sets out to sea.

Youth wrote:

I went to his house and we started writing songs, strumming guitars in the kitchen.

That was a major breakthrough because it got him singing again which he hadn't done for a long time.

He hadn't been singing for around 18 months. I think the record had turned into a real labour. He was stuck and didn't know how to proceed, so he was avoiding it.

Santiago wrote:

"It is easy when you are beaten, he thought. I never knew how easy it was."

Moby wrote:

Moby, who worked with Axl from around February to October 1997 described Axl as seeming like a "beaten dog". Very cautious, shy and nervous. Not the confident rockstar the world knew in 1991-1993 or like the evil egomaniac tales paint him as.

Santiago wrote:

“But man is not made for defeat," he said. "A man can be destroyed but not defeated.”

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The fisherman charts a course far out into the Gulf Stream where he is determined his unlucky streak will end. The coolness of dawn quickly turns into the scorching heat of the midday sun. Yet the fisherman again presses on. He snares some small fish, doing all he can to keep up his strength for the journey ahead. The sun's fury is unrelenting yet deeper and deeper he goes into the boundless ocean.

The fisherman casts out his line, pulling out all of his tricks, pushing himself to the edge of his knowledge when suddenly, there is a definitive pull off port. Something is out there, ready for the taking. The fisherman wryly maneuvers his bait, seducing the creature in closer and closer. The fisherman continues to use the utmost of his cunning to outsmart the creature and successfully baits the fish, which he suspects is a great marlin. While the bait ensnares the creature, the fisherman is unable to haul him in as he is too big and instead opts for it to tow the line as he and his boat are dragged forth by the monstrous animal.

The great fish could likely destroy the fisherman at a moments notice yet it gracefully jumps out of the water into the air in front of the fisherman which further convinces him of his majesty. He takes a liking to the creature and forms a deep bond with the now wholly revealed marlin, going as far as to call him his brother. After several days at sea, in act of weary desperation, the fisherman stabs the marlin with a harpoon.

Santiago wrote:

“His choice had been to stay in the deep dark water far out beyond all snares and traps and treacheries. My choice was to go there to find him beyond all people. Beyond all people in the world. Now we are joined together and have been since noon. And no one to help either one of us.”

Santiago wrote:

“Fish," he said, "I love you and respect you very much. But I will kill you dead before this day ends.”

Santiago wrote:

“It is good that we do not have to try to kill the sun or the moon or the stars. It is enough to live on the sea and kill our true brothers.”

Santiago wrote:

“You are killing me, fish, the old man thought. But you have a right to. Never have I seen a greater, or more beautiful, or a calmer or more noble thing than you, brother. Come on and kill me. I do not care who kills who."

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The fisherman has long decided that the great marlin will not be eaten, it'll merely have to be looked upon with the respect and glory that it deserves yet after spearing the marvelous creature, it's blood seeps into the water, which attracts a nearby herd of sharks. The Cuban shores are a lifetime away. The fisherman does his best to defend his friend, his brother from the oncoming attack yet he is outnumbered and the sharks proceed to devour the marlin. The fisherman kills several of them in retaliation and shouts that that the sharks have killed his dreams.

It takes all of the fisherman's remaining strength just to get back to the shore. When he does, he carries in the heavy mast of his boat on his shoulder, collapses on his bed and falls into a deep sleep. When he wakes up, his fellow fisherman say how sorry they are while admiring the massive skeleton of the marlin.

The fisherman's apprentice comes into his room and upon noticing the state of his injured hands from the battle with the sharks, bursts into tears. The fisherman, meanwhile, falls back asleep, dreaming of his youth.

Santiago wrote:

“Half fish," he said. "Fish that you were. I am sorry that I went too far out. I ruined us both. But we have killed many sharks, you and I, and ruined many others. How many did you ever kill, old fish? You do not have that spear on your head for nothing.”

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As I have written previously, the song Madagascar is the narrative mis-en-scene of the Chinese Democracy album and it's majesty is only further revealed by a reading of Hemingway's farewell novel.

The fisherman in "The Old Man and the Sea" ultimately finds himself defeated by the harsh ocean and confesses that he went too far out. The aging Rose, roughly 15 years Hemingway's junior at the time of writing, remains utterly defiant.

Axl wrote:

I won't be told anymore
That I've been brought down in this storm
And left so far out from the shore
That I can't find my way back
My way anymore

The storms of life had hit Axl hard over the course of several years with two ugly breakups, several court cases and looming lawsuits, the death of his mother to cancer, the death of his friend West Arkeen, the dissolution of his band, and the loss of band members and longtime friends Duff McKagan and Slash. The storms had gotten uncomfortably close, the waves came crashing down from inconceivable heights and Rose could only flail his arms in hopes of surviving.

When the storms finally receded, Rose was left to sort through the wreckage. He could've easily retired to his palatial estate in Malibu yet Rose decided to recast Guns N' Roses and soldier forth as the last man standing. In the early sessions for a new album, Rose scribes "Madagascar", the gospel sound of resistance, a soaring proclamation that he will not go gently into that good night and he most certainly will rage, rage against the dying of the day. It's a call to the weary and burdened everywhere, an anthem of personal triumph.

The inversion of the story is also an inversion of Hemingway himself. That Rose won't compromise on his vision, he'll secure his bounty, he'll not be defeated, and unlike Hemingway, he will manage to save his own life, all against the insurmountable odds.

It's easy to interpret Rose generically although as the song's ties to Hemingway would suggest, the roots go much deeper. The choice of hip hop inspired beats mixed with the gospel tinged french horns isn't merely for taste but as astute fans have observed, likely something of a personal confession from Rose. The sound sample from Martin Luther King Jr. is no mistake either, both as a criticism to the rich versus the rich-at-heart and like the fool in Martin's sermon, while Rose had gained the world he had yet lost himself and everything that he loved.

"Madagascar" also falls into the greater thematic framework of the "Chinese Democracy" album which pits oppressor against the oppressed and the totalitarian against their naive and powerless subjects. On it's most superficial level, the song could be seen as something of a personal redemption for the presumed racist lyrics of "One In A Million". More deeply it suggests the racial divide in America is not quite as healed as one would hope and that Rose seems to share the dream that all men could one day be seated at the table of brotherhood and that will be a sign of a true collective redemption.

And speaking of brotherhood, the specter of departed guitarist Slash looms over much of the record and heaps of contemplation has been done over whether Rose's missives and cries are directed towards former love interests or former band members. With Hemingway in view, one wonders if the marlin is not a direct metaphor for Slash, that despite a shared brotherhood, Rose realizes that one must destroy the other. Now in retrospect, one wonders if Rose did not destroy both. Another reading would see Rose himself as the marlin in deep waters, away from the snares and traps of the world, content to explore the vast oceans by himself.

The greater harvest that Rose sought to reap much like the great marlin, has undeniably evaded him. Nearly a decade after the release of Chinese Democracy, the album's bones have been picked clean by fans and critics alike and after a recently mended relationship with Slash, one wonders if the great artist has found contentment in mere survival. In the face of premature and untimely celebrity deaths and a career of incredible music that has inspired a legion of fans, one must consider Rose victorious, even in defeat.

Axl wrote:

This is how I spent my summer.

And how with the help of many others managed to save my own life.

If something here works for you, that's more than we could hope for.

Santiago wrote:

“The setting of the sun is a difficult time for all fish.”

#725 Re: Guns N' Roses » Guns N' Roses planning new album - 'It's too good not to happen!' » 424 weeks ago

"And no offense but no one's trying to talk in parables"

Except Lance, I guess.

Anyway, I'm past the point of caring about this shit. If anyone ever has anything to share, hit me up with a PM.

I'll be in my shed in the wilderness until 2020. Best of luck kids.

#726 Re: Guns N' Roses » Guns N' Roses planning new album - 'It's too good not to happen!' » 424 weeks ago

James Lofton wrote:

Even the ones that are fans don't care anymore. They've had this stuff so long that they rarely listen anymore. Its probably on a disc at the bottom of their closet.

PSA: I'll clean anyone's closet for free if you have secret discs at the bottom of it. Maybe a tuggie to boot. 15

#727 Re: Guns N' Roses » Guns N' Roses planning new album - 'It's too good not to happen!' » 424 weeks ago

monkeychow wrote:

What exactly is supposed to be "out there" that hasn't leaked to the general public? Which songs?

I'll have to look through my old files but these were being hunted for privately a couple years ago:

  • Jackie Chan/Checkmate

  • Oklahoma/Berlin

  • Atlas Shrugged

  • Oh My Buckethead / Oh My God 2002

  • Oh My God 2013

  • Silkworms

  • Seven

  • The General

  • Thyme

  • Soul Monster/Leave Me Alone/Elvis Presley and the Monster of Soul

  • Ides of March

  • Zodiac

  • Quick Song

  • Down By The Ocean

  • Chinese Democracy Remixes

misterID wrote:

Also, I don't think anyone has it, but supposedly there's a version of Atlas featuring Slash and Duff.

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#728 Re: Guns N' Roses » Guns N' Roses planning new album - 'It's too good not to happen!' » 424 weeks ago

lance wrote:

One them does !

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sp1at wrote:

Atlas Shrugged was uploaded to a public file hosting server years ago, when I asked about it, they removed it. It was a website to do with music instrumentation, had a lot of modern classical music on it. A female recording engineering student, young, also had access to working files of quite a few songs, the named ones that I found and others, quick song etc.. Unfortunately, she was not very helpful.

Pity.

#729 Re: Guns N' Roses » Guns N' Roses planning new album - 'It's too good not to happen!' » 424 weeks ago

misterID wrote:

It's more likely the Bucket version is out there than the Ron re-recordings.

That'd be nice.

If you guys have it, be a bro and just send me a quick PM.

#730 Re: Guns N' Roses » Guns N' Roses planning new album - 'It's too good not to happen!' » 424 weeks ago

Miles is awful but the guest heavy one is just as bland and mediocre.

The sad thing is we're gonna be griping at each other for another 2 years / eternity instead of talking about new tunes.

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