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Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
This is how I look at it. There are 2 main groups.
Group 1:
There are many who won't make an attempt to better themselves. They will collect their cheque each week and exploit the system. They are the same ones who aren't trying to better themselves much now either and are happy to live like urchins ....under the street. They will get a better standard of living at the tax payers expense.
Group 2:
There are those who are not in a position to better themselves but want to. Social welfare will allow them to better themselves. The taxpayer is subsidizing this too.
The question for me is "Am I prepared to pay out to help Group 2 when I know Group 1 will exploit me for it ? Do I care more about helping Group 2 than I do about preventing Group 1 taking advantage ?"
I'm not happy about helping Group 1 to be useless leeches, but I would like to help Group 2. So that's the price I have to pay then.
Either way, benefits for the poor are a drop in the ocean compared to the generation annual bailout theft to banks, insurance companies, airlines etc. How many trillions were paid out to the ultra rich in 08/09?
That point is very true. Morally how can you bail out the rich and leave the poor to rot?
Not a bad argument. It seems to me like some poor people deserve to rot and some rich people deserve to rot too.
Not all poor people though, and not all rich people either.
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
I am all for helping group 2; I just think more of an effort needs to be made to give people in group 1 a reason to move to group 2. You'll never get rid of group 1, but there has to be a solution that makes it better to be in group 2 than group 1.
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
In all seriousness, the amount of money group 1 gets is so low there's a reason group 1 is so small and the amount of fraud is so low. It's not even worth "living on."
The majority of people on foodstamps actually have jobs, but the jobs do not pay a wage that matches the cost of living, which hasn't risen in what, the last 30 years? And the people in charge fight every time the minimum wage is raised.
Seriously, the people who are saying that welfare is keeping people from bettering themselves, that its an enabling system, is lying. Through their teeth. If they were honest, then they would be honest that THEY are cutting every program that helps these people better themselves. From education to job programs. But then again, they wouldn't have anyone to blame.
I could ask where this has been proven a fact, but I don't have to... Since 1974 Conservative groups have researched this to prove their point and not one has ever found that it was real.
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
In all seriousness, the amount of money group 1 gets is so low there's a reason group 1 is so small and the amount of fraud is so low. It's not even worth "living on."
The majority of people on foodstamps actually have jobs, but the jobs do not pay a wage that matches the cost of living, which hasn't risen in what, the last 30 years? And the people in charge fight every time the minimum wage is raised.
Seriously, the people who are saying that welfare is keeping people from bettering themselves, that its an enabling system, is lying. Through their teeth. If they were honest, then they would be honest that THEY are cutting every program that helps these people better themselves. From education to job programs. But then again, they wouldn't have anyone to blame.
I could ask where this has been proven a fact, but I don't have to... Since 1974 Conservative groups have researched this to prove their point and not one has ever found that it was real.
I don't know where you're getting your information from, but even in Chattanooga there are a ton of homeless people and/or people living in assisted living making no effort to improve their lives. Numbers are nice and everything, but I'll trust what I see over anybody's numbers. I can't go out to lunch one day without getting hit up for a handout. It was even worse when I was in Philadelphia for work.
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
Well, the eye test really doesn't work here for what I'm saying. You're not taking into account the people you don't see, who are trying... I understand what you're saying. And I'm not arguing that what you're saying isn't true with some of these people. What I'm saying is that they're nowhere near as significate of a problem as they've been scapegoated for. I do agree with you that it sucks and it's bullshit.
When I talk about numbers, I'm talking about people who have researched to show what is true and what isn't, and I haven't seen anything to support this. Numbers, like facts, do matter.
I think the disparity in wealth, the refusal to raise wages for over 30 years, the medical/pharmaceutical cartels raping medicare/medicaid, building up a navy (right now you could combine every other navy in the world, from every country and we're still bigger than them) with ships we don't need, building fighter jets for the airforce that dont even work in the rain, for an already bloated air fleet, and the continuation of a tax code that gives the biggest tax breaks to companies who ship jobs overseas and use materials from other countries. There's nothing tied to those tax breaks to do what they're "supposedly" intended to do; create jobs, or trickle down wealth.
These are much bigger and significant problems than the dude hitting you up for change at lunch time.
The problem is, this economy is actually a success by conservative principles. Corporations have never been more successful. The rich have never been this wealthy before. This is what a Plutocracy looks like. But we got to blame somone to explain why everything sucks for everyone else.
When we're talking about the entitled class, we need to start using that term to the real entitlement class, who think that their wealth entitles them to make the rules and operate however they feel benefits them, even while it hurts 99% of the population, and rigging things to get the law makers THEY want elected. 57% of Washington is made up of the 1%.
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
Well, the eye test really doesn't work here for what I'm saying. You're not taking into account the people you don't see, who are trying... I understand what you're saying. And I'm not arguing that what you're saying isn't true with some of these people. What I'm saying is that they're nowhere near as significate of a problem as they've been scapegoated for. I do agree with you that it sucks and it's bullshit.
When I talk about numbers, I'm talking about people who have researched to show what is true and what isn't, and I haven't seen anything to support this. Numbers, like facts, do matter.
My problem with "research" is that the people doing the reseach usually have an agenda and make sure the results show what they want it to show. That goes for everything - I'm not picking on any specific research or this subject specifically. I don't trust any of them. Numbers can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say. Presentation is everything.
I think the disparity in wealth, the refusal to raise wages for over 30 years, the medical/pharmaceutical cartels raping medicare/medicaid, building up a navy (right now you could combine every other navy in the world, from every country and we're still bigger than them) with ships we don't need, building fighter jets for the airforce that dont even work in the rain, for an already bloated air fleet, and the continuation of a tax code that gives the biggest tax breaks to companies who ship jobs overseas and use materials from other countries. There's nothing tied to those tax breaks to do what they're "supposedly" intended to do; create jobs, or trickle down wealth.
These are much bigger and significant problems than the dude hitting you up for change at lunch time.
The problem is, this economy is actually a success by conservative principles. Corporations have never been more successful. The rich have never been this wealthy before. This is what a Plutocracy looks like. But we got to blame somone to explain why everything sucks for everyone else.
When we're talking about the entitled class, we need to start using that term to the real entitlement class, who think that their wealth entitles them to make the rules and operate however they feel benefits them, even while it hurts 99% of the population, and rigging things to get the law makers THEY want elected. 57% of Washington is made up of the 1%.
I don't know. I hear what you're saying and I don't like the tax breaks and other things that the rich get, but I also don't think they should be punished for working hard and earning more than someone else either. I'm a fan of the flat tax - everybody pays the same %, no tax breaks for anything. Simplify the tax code, get rid of 70% of the IRS.
Listen, I'm far from rich, but I live a pretty comfortable life. I worked hard to get here, and I don't like giving some of what I worked hard to get to someone not even making an effort to do anything. I don't have the biggest house, I don't have the best car...we live our day to day life at the same level we did when I was making 1/3 of what I make now. We travel a bit more and we're fixing up our house with the extra money (and saving some) instead of blowing it on stuff we can't afford. Why should I be punished for being responsible with my life? I'm not saying I deserve a reward for doing the right thing, but I shouldn't be punished for it, yet the way things are now I am.
When I was part of a layoff a couple years ago, we never touched our savings or the severence package. If that were to happen again, I'd be in the same place. I wouldn't be losing my house and I wouldn't be collecting welfare (other than unemployment if you consider that welfare). I'm all for social security and unemployment - for the most part, they support people that paid into it. If they could come up with a healthcare solution that worked the same way, I'd be all for that too. I don't have a problem with "socialization" to a point; my problem is when it gets to the point that it encourages people to not do something. That means encourages the poor to not try to improve themselves and it includes the rich not putting more into the economy and hoarding the cash. Right now, the rich (and corporations especially) are holding onto their cash. Why? They didn't do that in the past. They need a reason to spend it, and when they do (provided it's not going to bonuses to the execs), it will benefit everybody.
Now here's where you're going to see the other side of me and I may come off as a hypocrite: I was disgusted when I saw the salary that the CEO of the last company made. His job isn't THAT hard. Take a million off his salary (he'll never miss it) and save some of the thousands that were part of layoffs.
So to me, the middle class is getting screwed from both sides. Things like ObamaCare hurt us more than it hurts the rich and it benefits the poor more than anybody. The rich get all the tax breaks, the poor don't pay taxes, and the middle class for the most part pay what they are "supposed" to pay. That is why the middle class is shrinking, so it pisses me off that Obama is going around claiming to defend the middle class. Bullshit.
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
I don't think you're a hypocrite at all. We all have conflicting ideas and opinions on this, and like I've said, we're very close on how we think.
I've pretty much stated my issues with Obama, but the thing I can't deny is that housing has been growing and becoming steadily better (the thing that got us into this mess), a sure sign that economy is getting better. The jobs numbers are (slowly) getting better. The Middle Class have been receiving more tax cuts under Obama, including the payroll tax cut, than any time I can remember. And all this under an obstructionist congress.
And you're talking about the bottom 50% not paying taxes, which simply isn't true. You're talking income taxes, but not including payroll taxes (which composes a third of all federal revenue), state and local taxes, which is paid disproportionately by the bottom 50%. Yes, the top 5% pay the most in INCOME TAX but not total taxes. The top 1% of tax payers pay about 23% of all taxes. But so does everyone else, except for the bottom 12% who pay about 5% because they don't own property that could be taxed. Yet that same top 1% takes in far more than 23% of the total income.
Obamacare is going to do what you've said yourself pisses you off. Penalize the free loaders; people who can afford healthcare but don't. That's 4 million people the mandate effects and that's like, about 1% of the country? I'm not even happy with the individual mandate! Give us single payer, public option and cap medical and prescription drug costs like we're supposed to do and every other country does.
And the Affordable Care Act is something everyone likes. Even republicans who say they'll repeal Obamacare won't touch it, because they like it. It had to happen, we needed it. It saved lives - literally. I can vouch for that in my own family experience. The way insurance companies could drop you was insane and unforgivable. And even if Obama is voted out, Obamacare will still exist with the ACA, which is Obamacare without the mandate.
Flat tax is tricky in how they define it. I mean, you still have deductions and certain people will pay more, but I agree, absolutely that the tax code should be streamlined, but we need incentivized tax deductions/tax cuts.
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
I don't think ObamaCare is going to do what you think it is going to do. people that can't afford it aren't going to buy in until they have to...and when I say have to, I mean something happens that makes having insurance an advantage, not an additional expense, not they are caught without insurance. How exactly are they going to get caught anyway? Are people going to have to send something in with their taxes to prove insurance coverage? We don't even send in anything as it is...we do it all online.
