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RussTCB

 Rep: 633 

Re: The BATMAN Thread

RussTCB wrote:

removed

Bono

 Rep: 386 

Re: The BATMAN Thread

Bono wrote:

Am I wrong or

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is it up for debate whether or not he died at the end?

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No he's dead as a door nail. I think that was Alfred's fantasy no questions asked.

RussTCB

 Rep: 633 

Re: The BATMAN Thread

RussTCB wrote:

removed

Bono

 Rep: 386 

Re: The BATMAN Thread

Bono wrote:

Am I wrong or

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is it up for debate whether or not he died at the end?

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No he's dead as a door nail. I think that was Alfred's fantasy no questions asked.

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Fair enough. I can see it both ways though. Upon leaving the theater, I thought he'd lived. But as the day went on, I was thinking more about it and I think you might be right.

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I think having him live after that would be incredibly stupid and really an insult to the viewers.

monkeychow

 Rep: 661 

Re: The BATMAN Thread

monkeychow wrote:

I totally disagree Bono...

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The idea that it's alfred's phantasy is dispelled by the previous scene where Lucius Fox discovers that Bat-Plane's auto-pilot had indeed been repaired 6 months earlier and the code modification was signed 'Bruce Wayne'.

Remember when first shown the plane Fox comments that fixing the autopilot is a job for bruce because he is too busy. Then later as bruce takes the plane out again he teases fox for being slack about the autopilot and fox jokes "bah autopilot...that's why you fly it" or something like that.

So then at the end it's revealed that wayne was just bantering with him and he had ALREADY fixed the autopilot...

To me this implies that he ejected somewhere over gotham after stealing the bomb and when it blew the plane was auto/remote piloted....and thus that when alfred sees him and catwoman it's for real.

Also - why would alfred's fantasy wife for bruce be catwoman...I think it's clear he's still alive but faked his death to retire and pass the torch to Robin.

Bono

 Rep: 386 

Re: The BATMAN Thread

Bono wrote:

I totally disagree Bono...

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The idea that it's alfred's phantasy is dispelled by the previous scene where Lucius Fox discovers that Bat-Plane's auto-pilot had indeed been repaired 6 months earlier and the code modification was signed 'Bruce Wayne'.

Remember when first shown the plane Fox comments that fixing the autopilot is a job for bruce because he is too busy. Then later as bruce takes the plane out again he teases fox for being slack about the autopilot and fox jokes "bah autopilot...that's why you fly it" or something like that.

So then at the end it's revealed that wayne was just bantering with him and he had ALREADY fixed the autopilot...

To me this implies that he ejected somewhere over gotham after stealing the bomb and when it blew the plane was auto/remote piloted....and thus that when alfred sees him and catwoman it's for real.

Also - why would alfred's fantasy wife for bruce be catwoman...I think it's clear he's still alive but faked his death to retire and pass the torch to Robin.

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I must've completely blanked on him eing with Catwoman at the end. I got the part that he had fixed it six month ago but still I think it'd be fucking stupid if he lived. Had he actually fixed it on the one he was flying or did he fix it on a model not in use?

buzzsaw

 Rep: 423 

Re: The BATMAN Thread

buzzsaw wrote:

I have to say this is the best argument ever on this site.  Maybe all fights from now on need to be done as spoilers.

Bono

 Rep: 386 

Re: The BATMAN Thread

Bono wrote:

I have to say I think Monkey is right AND....

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I think it sucks. Changes the way I feel about the ending completely. I thought having him die was perfect. This nice and tidy cheap cop out of him fixing the auto pilot and safely ejecting before the nuke explodes is lame.  now I'm sour on this movie. Ending sucks and is a total hollywood cliche. STUPID

monkeychow

 Rep: 661 

Re: The BATMAN Thread

monkeychow wrote:

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I must've completely blanked on him eing with Catwoman at the end. I got the part that he had fixed it six month ago but still I think it'd be fucking stupid if he lived. Had he actually fixed it on the one he was flying or did he fix it on a model not in use?

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I think it was catwoman...was certainly a similar chick that my brain processed as her but maybe I fucked up. If i see it again at the theatre I'll be ready for it and check.

You could be right about the autopilot - maybe it was only the other one... but that seems odd to me...you'd think he'd repair both. I just don't see the point of the scene revealing he'd actually fixed it if that was the case, storywise to me the only reason to show that he repaired one was to create the implication that it's possible he lived, and considering the very next scene is the sighting of him....maybe I just like happy endings but seems to me it's leaning towards that meaning.

My major problem with the film was:

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Given Bane releases all the criminals...including going as far as using scarecrow as the chief prosecutor/judge at their sham court...it's
sort of a major plot hole in terms of the story making sense that there is entirely no reference to the absence of Joker.

Don't get me wrong...I'm glad they didn't get someone else to try and mimic him or CGI it or something. But I do believe they should have made some ofd-screen reference to him without seeing him or something. Or just hear a laugh or something from an overview of the city. Cos from a storyline continuity point of view - if we're to believe this is all real and the real life events of one universe..WTF is joker? He just doesn't exist all of a sudden. No reference is made, either to his death or his escape with the others or anything. I know they were trying to be sensitive to Heath and everything...but it's now a massive loose end plot wise that makes no sense.

Nolan said:
"We're not addressing The Joker at all. That is something I felt very strongly about in terms of my relationship with Heath and the experience I went through with him on The Dark Knight. I didn't want to in any way try and account for a real-life tragedy. That seemed inappropriate to me. We just have a new set of characters and a continuation of Bruce Wayne's story. Not involving The Joker." He is neither seen, heard or mentioned throughout the whole film.

To me that's his own grief talking though. I'm glad they didn't respect Heath by having someone body double or something. But the storyline needed some kind of throw-away explanation for his absence just for continuity.

monkeychow

 Rep: 661 

Re: The BATMAN Thread

monkeychow wrote:

I have to say I think Monkey is right AND....

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I think it sucks. Changes the way I feel about the ending completely. I thought having him die was perfect. This nice and tidy cheap cop out of him fixing the auto pilot and safely ejecting before the nuke explodes is lame.  now I'm sour on this movie. Ending sucks and is a total hollywood cliche. STUPID

Sorry dude!!!

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Understand why you feel that way....if my theory is correct it is very much a non-challanging ending...although the 8 year old in me would tear up if bruce really died!

Overall I'm mixed on it...probably need to watch it again to compare more....loved parts of it

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thought catwoman was nicely handled and some of the other scenes...but I also felt the pacing was kind of odd in places too. Several moments I felt were cool ideas but would have been better done in different places.