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Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
a really great post from an industry insider at the Velvet Rope on the Hall issue and the name issue......
"right" or "justified" depend entirely on whose ox is being gored. Axl is entirely justified in telling the Hall how he wants to be inducted. and whether the ceremony will include him.
again, his method of doing so may sit not well with others. to a large extent, so what? I respect the guy for not bowing to what others think is "best" - and if no other reason than that many of those same people shit on lesser artists all year long.
so, for once, an artist can tell them to go to hell, do it his way, or leave him alone.
and they cant buckle him.
that's a rarity, and I wish more did it. if for no other reason than that Jann has made that Hall a fucking museum of his own personal preferences, not merit. i mean, one of Axl's biggest musical influences, Alice, has to share the induction date w/ first ballot inductees from RHCP and the Beasties. - a real cornerstone of rock music corralled in with MTV drivel.
(imo, while I might lean closer to Mike D's outlooks on life than the Coop's - as artists, these are not equals.)
Originally Posted By: GoodGodyou surely must also know some of the ridiculous demands Axl has put on everyone who has worked for him, in the legal department or not, dating back to the time they exploded.
fair enough but still, one thing about that. I assure you that one of the smartest things Axl did, was to approach ill-guided acts and was clever enough to talk to bands who WISH they had acted to protect themselves before it was too late. While Slash and Duff and Steve were out doping on tour, Axl solicited insights from his elders, and then used their experiences to shape his own so he didn't go through the meat grinder and come up unprotected.
he also smelled bullshit a thousand miles away and as soon as he could, he bid those sort of people adieu. of course, in doing so, you offend people, and then reputations get besmirched, and the rationality of what one is doing is called into question. you need a thick hide to suffer that, and Axl is equipped with such a hide
Originally Posted By: GoodGodWhy should Axl be so special in this case? Can you name a precedent for this demand at any induction to date?
he is sui generis in many respects, and by not following the herd, he has pissed many off, but he also has maintained a lot of integrity in the sense of, he does he he wants, and you know that going in with him.
this is why you have no difficulty recognizing he is consistent. he does not give a shit about anything other than what works for him. and he would rather fail on his own terms than cave to the machinations of others.
I'd like about 1500 other artists like that to emerge any day now.
Originally Posted By: GoodGodAnd we know there was more than money involved in him getting the name. Every one of them involved has told the story, in books yet, except Izzy, who speaks volumes by saying little or nothing...as well as leaving at the beginning of the "Use Your Illusion" tour.
my take on that is he saw these other guys becoming weak in ways that destroy a band. many precedents for that staring them in the face, and he has and had too much pride to give away his juice, or let others water it down.
so he jumped in to protect himself. and that isn't speculation. that is exactly what he was faced with and how he chose to deal with it.
Tommy Stinson doesn't suffer many fools, and in the right moment, will tell you that Axl did what the Mats wish to have done and wanted to do - be successful enough to be left alone and pursue whatever it is that fancied them, and the day they forgot that, was the last day they had any fun as a band.
that's an important perspective often lost in these musings.
Originally Posted By: GoodGodAnyone who thinks GN'R is entering the R&R Hall of Fame based on Chinese Democracy and the current touring unit is batshit. Or sorely deluded.
that's not the question to me. the question is "has Axl rightfully earned and positioned himself so that he can dictate to others, especially when they have their own ideas of what he should be content to accept?"
my answer is, yep, he has. and that is admirable. because very few ever get there, and those in position to do so, often fail to nail it down when and while they can. then live to regret it later.
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
Buzz, the problem is people still believe that Axl used force to get the band to sign over the name. This incident was never brought up at trial. Also, the notion that Axl exploited the band when they were under the influence of illegal substances was also never introduced.
Why? Because as Dexter said, it never happened.
Perceptions need to change about why the name changed hands and realize that it was just a very ignorant decision by Slash and Duff and a shrewd move by Axl.
Posters here throw around, "Axl stole from Slash and Duff" without acknowledging that there is zero evidence that occurred. the law is very specific in this regard and one cannot coerce another to sign away rights, property under the threat of some reactionary force meant to harm them. Basically, those who side with Slash/Duff refuse to give up this fiction.
It doesn't matter if there's evidence. See my previous post.
By the way, band mates don't pull "shrewed moves" on each other. Even if he didn't "steal" the name from them, I wouldn't blame anybody for thinking he did by pulling some "shrewed move" on two drug abusers. Even if it's not illegal, it's a bullshit thing to do. So you'll have to forgive people if while technically no laws were broken, they don't feel like the name was "stolen" out from under them. I certainly don't blame Slash and Duff for feeling that way (if they do).
- killingvector
- Rep: 21
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
killingvector wrote:Buzz, the problem is people still believe that Axl used force to get the band to sign over the name. This incident was never brought up at trial. Also, the notion that Axl exploited the band when they were under the influence of illegal substances was also never introduced.
Why? Because as Dexter said, it never happened.
Perceptions need to change about why the name changed hands and realize that it was just a very ignorant decision by Slash and Duff and a shrewd move by Axl.
Posters here throw around, "Axl stole from Slash and Duff" without acknowledging that there is zero evidence that occurred. the law is very specific in this regard and one cannot coerce another to sign away rights, property under the threat of some reactionary force meant to harm them. Basically, those who side with Slash/Duff refuse to give up this fiction.
It doesn't matter if there's evidence. See my previous post.
By the way, band mates don't pull "shrewed moves" on each other. Even if he didn't "steal" the name from them, I wouldn't blame anybody for thinking he did by pulling some "shrewed move" on two drug abusers. Even if it's not illegal, it's a bullshit thing to do. So you'll have to forgive people if while technically no laws were broken, they don't feel like the name was "stolen" out from under them. I certainly don't blame Slash and Duff for feeling that way (if they do).
Evidence doesn't matter.
Reality doesn't matter.
I'm sorry but I can't forgive people who are not willing to look at the 'evidence' or lack there of or let go of a fiction because it makes them feel better.
It is pandering and goes against every fiber in my being. It also opens such people up to further exploitation.
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
a really great post from an industry insider at the Velvet Rope on the Hall issue and the name issue......
"right" or "justified" depend entirely on whose ox is being gored. Axl is entirely justified in telling the Hall how he wants to be inducted. and whether the ceremony will include him.
See...this right here renders the rest of the post useless because you could make just as strong a case on the other side. It all depends on the point of view you're looking at it from. In short, is it worth screwing over your band mates for the right to protect (or tarnish) your band name? I guess it depends...I would rather have the band fall apart than take something from my band mates, but that's just me.
- killingvector
- Rep: 21
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
a really great post from an industry insider at the Velvet Rope on the Hall issue and the name issue......
"right" or "justified" depend entirely on whose ox is being gored. Axl is entirely justified in telling the Hall how he wants to be inducted. and whether the ceremony will include him.
again, his method of doing so may sit not well with others. to a large extent, so what? I respect the guy for not bowing to what others think is "best" - and if no other reason than that many of those same people shit on lesser artists all year long.
so, for once, an artist can tell them to go to hell, do it his way, or leave him alone.
and they cant buckle him.that's a rarity, and I wish more did it. if for no other reason than that Jann has made that Hall a fucking museum of his own personal preferences, not merit. i mean, one of Axl's biggest musical influences, Alice, has to share the induction date w/ first ballot inductees from RHCP and the Beasties. - a real cornerstone of rock music corralled in with MTV drivel.
(imo, while I might lean closer to Mike D's outlooks on life than the Coop's - as artists, these are not equals.)
Originally Posted By: GoodGodyou surely must also know some of the ridiculous demands Axl has put on everyone who has worked for him, in the legal department or not, dating back to the time they exploded.
fair enough but still, one thing about that. I assure you that one of the smartest things Axl did, was to approach ill-guided acts and was clever enough to talk to bands who WISH they had acted to protect themselves before it was too late. While Slash and Duff and Steve were out doping on tour, Axl solicited insights from his elders, and then used their experiences to shape his own so he didn't go through the meat grinder and come up unprotected.
he also smelled bullshit a thousand miles away and as soon as he could, he bid those sort of people adieu. of course, in doing so, you offend people, and then reputations get besmirched, and the rationality of what one is doing is called into question. you need a thick hide to suffer that, and Axl is equipped with such a hide
Originally Posted By: GoodGodWhy should Axl be so special in this case? Can you name a precedent for this demand at any induction to date?
he is sui generis in many respects, and by not following the herd, he has pissed many off, but he also has maintained a lot of integrity in the sense of, he does he he wants, and you know that going in with him.
this is why you have no difficulty recognizing he is consistent. he does not give a shit about anything other than what works for him. and he would rather fail on his own terms than cave to the machinations of others.
I'd like about 1500 other artists like that to emerge any day now.
Originally Posted By: GoodGodAnd we know there was more than money involved in him getting the name. Every one of them involved has told the story, in books yet, except Izzy, who speaks volumes by saying little or nothing...as well as leaving at the beginning of the "Use Your Illusion" tour.
my take on that is he saw these other guys becoming weak in ways that destroy a band. many precedents for that staring them in the face, and he has and had too much pride to give away his juice, or let others water it down.
so he jumped in to protect himself. and that isn't speculation. that is exactly what he was faced with and how he chose to deal with it.
Tommy Stinson doesn't suffer many fools, and in the right moment, will tell you that Axl did what the Mats wish to have done and wanted to do - be successful enough to be left alone and pursue whatever it is that fancied them, and the day they forgot that, was the last day they had any fun as a band.
that's an important perspective often lost in these musings.
Originally Posted By: GoodGodAnyone who thinks GN'R is entering the R&R Hall of Fame based on Chinese Democracy and the current touring unit is batshit. Or sorely deluded.
that's not the question to me. the question is "has Axl rightfully earned and positioned himself so that he can dictate to others, especially when they have their own ideas of what he should be content to accept?"
my answer is, yep, he has. and that is admirable. because very few ever get there, and those in position to do so, often fail to nail it down when and while they can. then live to regret it later.
Axl brought business books on tour, learned the industry, and fought hard to protect his livelihood.
Very few people realize how involved he was in not getting swindled.
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
buzzsaw wrote:killingvector wrote:Buzz, the problem is people still believe that Axl used force to get the band to sign over the name. This incident was never brought up at trial. Also, the notion that Axl exploited the band when they were under the influence of illegal substances was also never introduced.
Why? Because as Dexter said, it never happened.
Perceptions need to change about why the name changed hands and realize that it was just a very ignorant decision by Slash and Duff and a shrewd move by Axl.
Posters here throw around, "Axl stole from Slash and Duff" without acknowledging that there is zero evidence that occurred. the law is very specific in this regard and one cannot coerce another to sign away rights, property under the threat of some reactionary force meant to harm them. Basically, those who side with Slash/Duff refuse to give up this fiction.
It doesn't matter if there's evidence. See my previous post.
By the way, band mates don't pull "shrewed moves" on each other. Even if he didn't "steal" the name from them, I wouldn't blame anybody for thinking he did by pulling some "shrewed move" on two drug abusers. Even if it's not illegal, it's a bullshit thing to do. So you'll have to forgive people if while technically no laws were broken, they don't feel like the name was "stolen" out from under them. I certainly don't blame Slash and Duff for feeling that way (if they do).
Evidence doesn't matter.
Reality doesn't matter.
I'm sorry but I can't forgive people who are not willing to look at the 'evidence' or lack there of or let go of a fiction because it makes them feel better.
It is pandering and goes against every fiber in my being. It also opens such people up to further exploitation.
Perception is more important than reality. The sooner you figure that out, the better off you'll be. Lack of evidence does not equal fiction...that's the mistake you're making here.
- killingvector
- Rep: 21
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
Just because something can't be proved in court to their burden of proof doesn't mean it didn't or some version of it never happened.
It was never introduced at court, friend.
It wasn't a failed theory, it was never a theory. Never an aspect of their case.
If it happened, the multiple eyewitness accounts would have given them the biggest piece of evidence to get the name back.
But none of it surfaced.
As Dexter said, it didn't happen.
- killingvector
- Rep: 21
Re: RRHoF Discussion (Izzy/Slash/Axl Press Statements)
Perception is more important than reality. The sooner you figure that out, the better off you'll be. Lack of evidence does not equal fiction...that's the mistake you're making here.
Perception is very strong, but the moment we bow down to the grumblings of the mob is the moment the earth is back at the center of the Universe and the planets rotate on epicycles. Perception is not more important than reality. Scientology operates with your level of reason; should we embrace that?
If there is no evidence that an event occurred, to assert that the event occurred is a logically incorrect statement.
The sooner you believe your rational mind, the sooner you will see that perception plays no role in finding truth.
