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Re: Please Play TWAT more when a tour happens
FWIW, I remember seeing Jungle on MTV in Spring of 1988. Now I have no idea when the video was released but if James' info is correct and AFD was released in October 1987, then that really isn't too long for an album to gain its initial legs.
Unfortunately for Axl, he had the entire GNR legacy for this CD to be compared to and that would never have been a winnable battle for him. Too many fans--casual or hardcore--have a strong emotional attachment to those old GNR tunes. Since parts of CD are radically different from what the public expects GNR to sound like, there would be a segment of the fanbase that would reject CD.
Axl's been out of the spotlight for a LONG time, the band its like 13 years since the band was huge, a lot of people know the old band is not there and don't support it on principle, the album was droped with no promo, no tours and basicly no support of any kind,
I don't know about the album dropping with no promo. There was that entire free Dr. Pepper ad campaign that gave the album promotion. Best buy did feature it prominently for at least two weeks, as I remember CD being on the front of one of their weekly circular ads.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Please Play TWAT more when a tour happens
Well maybe there was some...but it wasn't handled well...my record store didn't even belive that it was comming out.
Got to say so...under this test anything is a failure....if the original band got back together it wouldn't outsell AFD...and then according to buz that would make it musically bad. It's just not sence making to me.
Anyway...i think IRISH OS1R1S has a bit of a point...it does seem we end up in this debate in every thread, part of that is my fault sorry!
Re: Please Play TWAT more when a tour happens
buzzsaw wrote:It's not me mad, it's the general public. That's what you guys keep missing. Everybody knows I don't like it, but some people are clinging to this theory that the music is good. It isn't. That doesn't mean you can't like it or other people can't like it, but the masses (right or wrong) don't like it, thus making it not good.
So you can keep making this about me all you want. All I'm doing is representing Joe Public. We don't like it. It's not what we want to hear Guns N' Roses sound like. Take that for what it's worth.
I'm not making any predictions here, but you do realize that some albums take some time to get noticed or pick up steam. There've been a number of albums that sold poorly, then won a grammy, and sales all of a sudden skyrocket. People see something win an award and think, "oh that must be worth purchasing". AFD was a "failure" by your rationale until it finally caught on. And more recently Kid Rock's latest album was a failure and total shit until he released "All Summer Long". Then sales picked up and it went from total shit to massive success.
AFD was done by an unknown band. Unknown bands do take time sometimes to catch on. GnR is no longer unknown - this album has been talked about for over 10 years. People knew it came out, they just didn't like what they heard.
Kid Rock had a crossover pop single. Pop single. There is no crossover pop single on CD. Sorry.
Again, I'm not saying these things will happen for CD, but there are plenty examples of other CD's taking awhile to pick up steam. YOU keep stating that the public could care less and it doesn't matter how much promotion, publice appearances, touring the band does. Nothing could've helped it. Obviously you have nothing to back that point up since none of those things ever happened, and in the same breath I can't prove that it would've helped or by how much. We simply won't be able to tell until it happens, which it just might never happen. How many other bands have been given so many chances? Van Halen maybe? This may be their last chance (without a reunion at least), so they better make it count.
People HEARD the songs. Go read the stats James mentions. They were downloaded. People heard them and said no thanks, not interested. No amount of promotion is going to change that. promotion helps make people aware of something. EVERYBODY knew CD was coming. There was no surprise launch, it was expected - for years.
Re: Please Play TWAT more when a tour happens
buzzsaw wrote:Is that what I said? No. But again, you want to make this about me since you can't argue with the lack of success for the album or the singles. You can like anything you want. That doesn't make it good, that makes it something you like. Good music that gets out to the public sells. Bad music that gets out to the public doesn't. You may think something that sells sucks, but the general opinion is that it's good. You may think something that doesn't sell is great, but the general opinion is that it isn't good.
In YOUR opinion, CD is great. The public has spoken loudly and clearly and said it sucks. You can argue with me all you want, that is the reality of the situation. People heard it. They didn't like it. The public says it isn't good. Don't tell me about it - you're not going to change my mind. Go tell the public in general that they are nuts and that CD is a great album. Get ready to be lauged at.
Well, that is what you're saying. You're saying CD is a flop so the music sucks. So by that logic, if something sells massively well, its great music. If it doesn't sell well, it sucks. And to think, all this time I was making fun of Britney Spears, and she's been a genius!
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it sucks. Stick with a story. If we're talking opinions, then we're talking opinions. You can't go back and forth on it. I can't stand her, but people like her music...the masses think it's good. Who gives a shit what you and I think?
My point stands firm which you cannot counter. CD sold 3 million copies. No "yeah, but...". It sold 3 million copies. Over half a million in the US. It was not a flop. You're argument is that it can't be a success because old GNR albums sold more. That is something you pulled out of your ass and stated as fact. Sorry.
It is widely accepted as fact that any Slash Axl album released tomorrow would outsell CD. Obviously I can't rove it, but it doesn't make it any less true. How many copies were sold in the first week? How about the first month? Now tell me how many were sold in all of 2009 so far.
Hahaha, holy shit your logic is hysterical.
No more so than yours.
I've never said CD was great. I know its a good album. A very good album. Some people here think its great. Only you and your little disgruntled buddies are saying it sucks.
I don't have any buddies. And if the silence you hear on the internet outside of a GnR site is any indication, I'm not the only one that thinks it sucks.
The irony is that you don't like CD or this line up, yet you're here every day, on message boards aimed at the new line up, trying to convince people who dig the line up and album that the new line up and album sucks... If it does suck, why are you trying to convince people of it?
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just stating facts and opinions related to the discussions.
Where are all the message boards dedicated to the old line up?..... Oh yeah.... There aren't any.
Actually, there are more fans of the old band than the new band that belong to these forums (other than HTGTH where they get banned). Again, I can't prove it. If you really think it through though, you'll realize that is probably true. They don't post much (or ever in some cases), so you think they don't exist. Most people prefer the old band. I'm sorry if that bothers you so much.
Re: Please Play TWAT more when a tour happens
buzzsaw wrote:Good music that gets out to the public sells. Bad music that gets out to the public doesn't. You may think something that sells sucks, but the general opinion is that it's good. You may think something that doesn't sell is great, but the general opinion is that it isn't good.
In YOUR opinion, CD is great. The public has spoken loudly and clearly and said it sucks. You can argue with me all you want, that is the reality of the situation. People heard it. They didn't like it. The public says it isn't good.
Why then was it the 14th best selling album worldwide last year? In terms of record sales last year, the album did well, it's in the top 20 albums released.
The test where you can say it sucked is when compared to GNR history. But let me ask you buz - if you set up critera for success in that any artist has to outsell or match their works from the height of their fame then 95% of bands will fail that test. U2's last few albums didn't do the numbers of their earlier works. fail. You could do that forever....hell on your assessment UYI was a failure because it didn't sell as many copies as AFD.
Does estranged suck musically because it didn't sell as many copies as Sweet Child? The quality of the music is not the issue here.
Axl's been out of the spotlight for a LONG time, the band its like 13 years since the band was huge, a lot of people know the old band is not there and don't support it on principle, the album was droped with no promo, no tours and basicly no support of any kind, - despite these factors, it still sold to be #14th worldwide last year - and you are saying the fact that it doesn't equal AFD in record sales means that it's musically crap? Keep believing that if you want, but I'm sick of reading about the 'truth' when there isn't anything logical to what you are arguing, you keep just saying "you all don't like it because it's true" but what you are arguing is not based on any reasonable or fair minded assessment of the situation.
Show me one post that I made where I said I expected it to outsell AFD or even compared it to AFD's sales as though it actually had a chance of reaching it? I've been saying for years that if it was ever released it would not come close to AFD. As soon as you show me where I said that, I'll think about addressing the rest of your post.
Re: Please Play TWAT more when a tour happens
Your arguments are not only weak, but bordering sociopathic 
You're the one going back and forth on this. Not me.
According to Buzz The Ramones suck because they didn't sell enough albums, didn't have a hit and not enough people thought they were good.
No, go prove there are more old line up fans. Go start polls on all the message boards. Real easy. Settle it once and for all.
You've stated your opinions as fact. That's about it.
If Axl and Slash released an album tomorrow hardly anyone would really give a shit. It'd sell more than CD, but it would not be huge. Sorry.
Re: Please Play TWAT more when a tour happens
Your arguments are not only weak, but bordering sociopathic
You're the one going back and forth on this. Not me.
According to Buzz The Ramones suck because they didn't sell enough albums, didn't have a hit and not enough people thought they were good.
No, go prove there are more old line up fans. Go start polls on all the message boards. Real easy. Settle it once and for all.
You've stated your opinions as fact. That's about it.
If Axl and Slash released an album tomorrow hardly anyone would really give a shit. It'd sell more than CD, but it would not be huge. Sorry.
Why are you apologizing to me? You're agreeing that I am right.
As I said, they don't all post, in fact, most don't. Many probably joined and found a bunch of idiots talking about Finck and left. No poll is going to get those people to notice, but I assure you people like you will be rallying the troops.
I don't like the Ramones, I have no idea what they sold. Nor do I care. If I did, I'd go to a Ramones site.
Re: Please Play TWAT more when a tour happens
Where are all the message boards dedicated to the old line up?..... Oh yeah.... There aren't any.
Whoa... What? Seriously?
I like Chinese Democracy, I think it's a good album... but the old band is WHY I give a shit.
I would say 99.7% of anyone on any of these boards feel that way.
I suppose there are TECHNICALLY no message boards related to the old band, because it doesn't exist right now. If a reunion was announced tomorrow every GNR message board would triple in membership overnight with people looking for info on it.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Please Play TWAT more when a tour happens
Show me one post that I made where I said I expected it to outsell AFD or even compared it to AFD's sales as though it actually had a chance of reaching it? I've been saying for years that if it was ever released it would not come close to AFD. As soon as you show me where I said that, I'll think about addressing the rest of your post.
Yes...you've always said it never had a chance of reaching it...but you've clearly been saying all thread that your critera for caliing it sucessful would be it achieving those numbers. I provide the following examples:
How many albums do you think an Axl/Slash GnR album would have sold? That's the standard I'm holding it to. If you're going to be GnR, then you have to be GnR and accept the expectations that go with that.
then again here:
The masses have it beyond right here. And I'm not comparing Guns N' Roses to anything other than Guns N' Roses.
Then in refrence to Libertad vs old gnr:
"they all failed relatively speaking.
Then in relation to david gilmour:
"I don't care for anything he did, but it's impossible to argue that his solo career wasn't a flop compared to his group efforts. Impossible.All I'm doing is representing Joe Public. We don't like it. It's not what we want to hear Guns N' Roses sound like.
Seemed to me that the overarching point here was that you think the public's standard for GNR is the old albums and that sales show it hasn't reached that stanard? Is that not what you mean?
Re: Please Play TWAT more when a tour happens
Huh? What do different posts have to do with each other (especially the Gilmour one)? I see nowhere where you're pointing out that I said I expected them to outsell AFD. I see you trying to put 2 and 2 together to get 5.
My expectations for the album were (and always have been) to live up to the standards of what Guns N' Roses was. That doesn't mean in number of previous album sales, that means if and Axl/Slash GnR were to release an album today, that the success should be at that level. I don't have a specific number in mind, but I know whatever CD did was far below that. It's not even all about the numbers, it's about the "feel" of it all. None of this feels right to you, does it? Do you really think that the only reason this didn't take off was the lack of promotion?
