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Re: South Korea warns North of 'enormous retaliation' after attack
South Korea may appoint a new defense minister today after Kim Tae Young resigned in the wake of North Korea firing artillery onto the South’s territory for the first time in half a century this week.
Kim’s resignation was accepted by President Lee Myung Bak yesterday and a replacement will probably be announced today, according to a statement on the website of the presidential office. Kim had offered to resign in May after the sinking of the South Korean warship Cheonan in March, according to the statement.
The decision was made “in an attempt to restore the discipline of the military in the wake of the latest development,” the statement said. South Korea’s Yonhap News agency said that Lee was “bowing to public pressure” after the minister was “accused of mishandling North Korea’s deadly artillery attack.”
Tensions with North Korea have risen since the sinking of the warship, which killed 46 sailors. The Nov. 23 shelling of the Yeonpyeong island, which killed four and wounded 20, is the first of its kind since the 1950-1953 Korean War and spurred President Barack Obama to send an aircraft carrier to the Yellow Sea as a show of support and strength.
South Korea will revise battle manuals and increase military strength on its maritime border, the presidential office said in a separate statement yesterday after an emergency Cabinet meeting.
Military Alert
Plans to reduce the number of marines on Yeonpyeong and four neighboring islands on the western side of the Korean peninsula will be scrapped, according to the statement. The nation has raised its military alert status to the second- highest level.
The North Korean army’s Supreme Command, in a statement issued through the official Korean Central News Agency, accused South Korea of firing first in the Nov. 23 incident and warned of “merciless military attacks” if its territory is violated.
China’s Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei told reporters in Beijing it was evident that North and South Korea disagreed on which side started the clash. Premier Wen Jiabao has reiterated calls for stability on the Korean peninsula, without ascribing any blame to the North.
Obama, Lee and Japan’s Prime Minister Naoto Kan have urged China to use its influence to temper North Korean acts of aggression. China is the regime’s main economic and political benefactor and the two countries fought together against United Nations forces during the Korean War.
Prevent Escalation
“China thinks the most important and urgent goal right now is to make sure there won’t be any escalation of the conflict, rather than finding out who’s responsible,” said Yang Xiyu, a researcher at the China Institute of International Studies in Beijing, a group attached to China’s Foreign Ministry.
China’s refusal to blame North Korea mirrors its response to the sinking of the Cheonan. While the U.S., Japan, Australia and the U.K. all backed the findings of an international probe that said a North Korean torpedo caused the incident, China said it couldn’t reach a conclusion without seeing first-hand evidence.
Wen said that restarting six-party talks on dismantling North Korea’s nuclear weapons program is an essential step to ensuring stability, according to Xinhua. Hong appealed to the two Koreas to resume dialogue and use “a peaceful approach to solve conflicts.”
Trade Growth
Trade between China and North Korea climbed 22.3 percent in the first seven months of this year to $1.65 billion, with Chinese exports rising 29.6 percent, according to Chinese customs statistics. North Korean leader Kim Jong Il made an unprecedented two trips to China this year, meeting with President Hu Jintao in May and August.
Obama told Lee in a phone conversation that he plans to place a call to China to urge its cooperation on North Korean issues, according to a statement from Lee’s office. White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said in an e-mail this week that Obama would make the call to Hu in the “next several days.”
Kan, in a separate phone conversation, told Lee that “given China’s influence over North Korea, China should display a stern attitude,” Lee’s office said. Kan also pledged to convey this message to the Chinese government.
The U.S. should consider responding to North Korea’s call for direct talks that could lead to North Korea agreeing to end its nuclear programs, former president Jimmy Carter wrote yesterday in an article in the Washington Post.
North Korean ‘Fear’
“The unfortunate alternative is for North Koreans to take whatever actions they consider necessary to defend themselves from what they claim to fear most: a military attack supported by the United States, along with efforts to change the political regime,” Carter wrote.
While China’s public stance toward North Korea may not change, concern is growing in Beijing that an ally of six decades is increasingly a diplomatic liability, said Zhu Feng, a professor of international relations at Peking University.
“This attack proves that North Korea is entirely a minus to China’s foreign policy,” Zhu said. “I see growing frustration and I see a new imperative to overhaul the policy.”
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, speaking on state television yesterday in Moscow, condemned the North Korea shelling while saying that South Korea had ignored a request to cancel military exercises.
“This most recent incident was preceded by information that North Korea had appealed to South Korea not to hold military exercises, not to hold artillery practice,” Lavrov said. “But the exercises were held.”
Lavrov added: “It’s one thing to fire on water, even if the waters are disputed, and another thing entirely to hit land targets, populated areas. People died, that’s the main thing.”
He said the United Nations Security Council will issue a statement on the incident in the immediate future.
Russia, like China, shares a border with North Korea.
- Randall Flagg
- Rep: 139
Re: South Korea warns North of 'enormous retaliation' after attack
Anyone with a raging hardon to attack north korea can go to their nearest recruiter and signup. Drop my name when you come in. It's easy to fantasize and waive some flag from the safety of your home. North Korea poses no threat to the United States at this time. I'll be damned if I'll support some war the chickenhawks applaud for now and then 30 months from now revise history and say we should pull out or should have never gone in the first place. I remember when the invasions to Iraq and Afghanistan began. I remember all the cheering and cries for blood - from the safety of their homes. 8 years laters, it's a different story and those who wanted blood are no different for it. But there are about 10k Americans who never came home for armchair patriotism. Remember that next time you advocate sending someone else to die to fulfill some fantasy.
Re: South Korea warns North of 'enormous retaliation' after attack
For someone with a disdain for chickenhawks, you sure like voting for them every election cycle. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were literally run by chicken hawks. The people in the Bush administration that loved war the most(and were enacting their PNAC fantasy) dodged the Vietnam draft.
You're very intelligent and offer a unique perspective here on military issues and these chickenhawk rants don't really add anything, especially since you always vote for them and support them 100%.
- Randall Flagg
- Rep: 139
Re: South Korea warns North of 'enormous retaliation' after attack
There is a difference between elected politicians who may or may not have served in the military, (both Bush and Rumsfeld did) and those civilians whom have no military experience, aren't held accountable for thier choices who feel empowered to cheer for war from the safety of their homes. My argument is with the latter primarily, though career politicians who would never consider doing a 3 year stint are no better. That is my personal problem with modern America. The vast majority have no connection to the military or understand what it means. It's as real as the books or video games they play. My ultimate problem is when people get in a frenzy and pray for war only to change their mind a short period in when a slight inconvience that may be attributed to the war is endured. You ask strangers who volunteer to join to go half way around the world to do something they don't believe in or really understand. But they mentally prepare and condition themself to win the fight. They watch friends die and see lives ruined, only to return home to an unthankful and more importantly, understanding public.
You know what people ask me when they see me in uniform or know I was in Iraq? "How many people did you kill?" What kind of fucking question is that. A Soldier who kills someone likely watched a friend be killed or seriously injured. While he was killing some distant concept to the average american, he stood by as his friends got Dear John letters from women who couldn't keep their legs closed and the accomplice of men all to eager to deliver. I find myself growing more and more distant from civilian life every day.
My father killed himself 4 weeks ago. My emotions and reaction were different than anyone else in the family. I bottled it all up and realized that his passing has no lasting effect on me. I loved my father, but I've been all over the world the past 8 years and have not called his home my own in some time. Being there made me realize how far I grown distant from my family and how that pace will continue to grow. There is no turning back and the faster those not willing to support a cause they'll gladly send others to fight for only expedites that distance. I'm no coward and will go where I am told.
But there are consequences for cheering on war. Consequences ignored by the media and politicians alike. Remember that next time.
Re: South Korea warns North of 'enormous retaliation' after attack
I do agree that the public's concept of war has radically evolved over the decades, but that was by design. Desert Storm is what started the modern day outlook on war. It was intentionally shown that way to give war itself a "makeover". It was the post Vietnam era and obviously no one knew if America could stomach another quagmire of that magnitude(or potentially worse). So how do we get them to stomach it? By presenting warfare on TV as a video game, having politicians/military leaders talk tough, and the media sell it as the equivalent of first row tickets to the Super Bowl.
Obviously you're an adult as you are in the military but I do not know how old you were during Desert Storm. I was 16 and will never forget the day it started. People ran out of their houses to yell we were at war, then ran back in and sat glued to their tv screens. If you went to the store, it was being talked about and the tvs all on CNN. Every house you walked into was watching the video game presentation and Powell and Cheney making remarks like "we're gonna cut it off and we're gonna kill it". IT.
We have a new generation that grew up on this stuff. Right now, you can load Civ 4 on to your pc, choose a specific mod, and fight a Korean conflict using the current leaders of both nations. You can send your navy over there Desert Storm style, bomb the living shit out of NK, drop some tactical nukes on their troops, and launch an ICBM on Pyongyang. Then you take a huge diplo hit from China and Russia but they are unlikely to go to war.
War and the American perspective of it was permanently altered by that conflict, and every war since has been covered in the exact same fashion. Doesn't matter what side of the aisle you support, the next conflict will be sponsored by Google, have at least one catchphrase, and shown live 24/7 in HD.
It's the American way...
Sorry for the loss of your father. I assume losing a kid is even worse, but the loss of a parent is a huge blow. You move on of course but I don't think you ever fully recover from it.
Re: South Korea warns North of 'enormous retaliation' after attack
My condolences on the loss of your father Randall. That's terrible. I've been having a rough go of it lately, disillusionment and all, some by things you exactly stated.
It's the toughest thing i've ever dealt with and I hate everyday having to deal with it.
The loss of your father... I really hope he's at peace now.
- Randall Flagg
- Rep: 139
Re: South Korea warns North of 'enormous retaliation' after attack
I do agree that the public's concept of war has radically evolved overWe have a new generation that grew up on this stuff. Right now, you can load Civ 4 on to your pc, choose a specific mod, and fight a Korean conflict using the current leaders of both nations. You can send your navy over there Desert Storm style, bomb the living shit out of NK, drop some tactical nukes on their troops, and launch an ICBM on Pyongyang. Then you take a huge diplo hit from China and Russia but they are unlikely to go to war.
War and the American perspective of it was permanently altered by that conflict, and every war since has been covered in the exact same fashion. Doesn't matter what side of the aisle you support, the next conflict will be sponsored by Google, have at least one catchphrase, and shown live 24/7 in HD.
It's the American way...
And that's my problem. I have literally had wannabes come up to me and say they're thinking about joining as a sniper or some shit because they're really good at Halo. Are you kidding me? It's a total disconnect from reality. Equating ability on a video game to being able to endure days without water or food, shitting on yourself waiting for a 10 second shot that may or may not come. It's this same desensitizing that is making america weak. A sense of immediate reward for little to no effort. I don't consider myself special or any better because I wear a uniform 5 days a week. I do however believe I am more "enlightened" than those who choose to make decisions based solely on the information provided by a profiteering media whose interest lie in creating as much drama as possible. Doesn't make my opinions any more right than anyone else.
Most people on this forum probably don't "know" someone who was in the military or more specifically, Iraq or Afghanistan. They may casually know of someone who went over, but probably don't have a brother or close friend who's in. More than likely in their direct family, their grandfather is the last one to have served and that was in Korea or WW2. That's the generation gap. I'm not against violence or use of force to maintain American supremacy. Not at all. But I ask that if we go this route, the resources be given and sustained to win the war. And as equally important, the American people be taxed and endure sacrifice to keep it in their mind.
8 soldiers in 101st died in Afghanistan last weekend. Young guys who will never come home. Yet the media doesn't make that the front page issue. It's about whether gays should openly be in the ranks. That's what people are debating. That's what gets the headlines. If politicians put a 1/10th of as much posturing and effort into winning the war as they did campaigning for their opinion on DADT, we'd be a lot better off. But debating something removed and ultimately unimportant like DADT, carries little to no risk while making real policy change in the war does.
- Communist China
- Rep: 130
Re: South Korea warns North of 'enormous retaliation' after attack
You say 'winning the war' but I've never really been clear on what that means in this case. How do we know when/if we've won these current wars?
As for the Korean issue, I'd like to avoid conflict if at all possible. I don't really think this is going to necessitate the US getting involved in any sort of war, nobody really wants that, so hopefully it'll blow over. China's interest in NK is waning and I imagine soon enough they'll be unwilling to provide the support NK needs to continue oppressing their people. I think it could collapse and end up as a united Korea under Southern control without the need for American blood being spilled. But I might be hoping more than thinking. Wouldn't be the first time.
Re: South Korea warns North of 'enormous retaliation' after attack
Dude, you have got to be fuckin' kidding me....
They played Halo really good and thought they'd make a good soldier/sniper? WTF?
That crap right there is what this electronic-gen gets you. These fags spend so much time on Facebook and video games that they have no clue how the real world and frankly OLD world operates.
Much of the world still works they way it did 100 years ago. If this is the future of America, we're fuckin' doomed.
When do you get to the point that you ask yourself the question if this country is worth saving. Worth protecting.
Then it keeps ringing in my head... "forgive them Lord, they know not what they do..."
Re: South Korea warns North of 'enormous retaliation' after attack
This whole thread and several active on this forum are bothering me.
I/We were the "fags" as JR put it that played video games and thought it was a cool experience because Gramps and dad both served. We grew up with military year books, uniforms and our on camo play gear. Some of our first toys were G I Joe
I am told Gramps came back a total different person from Pearl Harbor. Alcohol and drugs were his Percocet. Eventually drunk driving into a telephone pole ended his life as an old shell of a once beautiful man the year before I was born.
Dad served and had orders to go to Korea but fell down a flight of stairs broke his leg and missed the plane. He finished his time in the US as a tank driver. He went to trade school to be a machinist and bought our house on the GI bill.
Back to I/WE my wife and I had a buddy that we grew up with we played thoes video games from Atari on till the first person shooters and war games like platoon on NES/SNES?Playstation/PC after the towers fell we both were already working on our family. We talked on the phone he was already military. I was the less than weekend warrior having issues with a living a military lifestyle. We were friends for life so I thought. At the time I had strong feelings of Signing up. In retrospect I am glad my wife talked me out of it.
He was shipped out shortly after. Have not heard a word from him or his family. It is as tho he never existed.
I do believe video games or any form of media affect you. I also believe people have choices to make. In mass people can be lead as sheep.
Randall thanks for sharing a piece of your experience and the views you hold here.
This forum makes me think alot. I read every ones opinions after I have formed my own to try to gain other perspectives. You will notice me try to avoid posting in political threads or threads that turn into flame fests. I have a hard time digesting personal remarks that stem from a debate sometimes as trivial as who the best band. There are alot more issues to get "emotionally involved" in. On the other hand I love to read someone express there opinion with conviction.
In an open forum we tend to forget there is a person behind an Avatar. And we also sometimes take things out of intended context because there is no personal contact, body language, smile, frown, or otherwise.
I also have a younger cousin that limited his social and entertainment activity to games and online only human contact. He was a basic shut-in. He went with the motions of life, school with a 4.0 never a girlfriend. Never a date, never a drug or a drink, never a friend over to hang out with. He graduated top of his class even in colleague. His first and only job ever pays him close to 100k a year. He leads this life alone at 23 and looking to start a family. My point is life is what you make it. He has a whole life left to experience the things he has only read about.
We all are a product our generation and as Randall put it the "profiteering media". Its up to the person to decide its entertainment at best enjoyed or left alone.
We are all inspired usually by a very excited but nieve first look at things. The guy in your story Randall could have become good at the real thing. Or the reality of his choice could have sent him on a total different direction in life. As a young person if your strong headed your direction in life cannot be steered or directed by others. Only by lessons learned. I was/am that kid.
