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Re: The battle of Wisconsin-labor unions
DCK wrote:I giggle like a goddamn schoolgirl
The thing is, a lot of people aren't living on a livable wage. The cost of living keeps rising, yet there's a strong conservative push to lower minimum wage. A lot of wages are not being adjusted to reflect the rising costs of living. A lot of people are just getting by and a lot have no other option than to go into debt just to keep the bills paid. If one bump in the road, one accident, one kid getting sick, a lay off, these people are destitute. And it has nothing to do with people living beyond their means, but just living. And unions, despite how corrupt some are, are the only thing protecting these people.
Spreading the wealth. Here's the funny thing, the whole logic of giving the wealthy the biggest tax breaks is that they're supposed to create jobs and spend more in the economy which would circulate the wealth... People are making lots of money right now... But its not being circulated... So, spreading the wealth is WHAT'S SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN with trickle down economics. But it's not.
There are no rules saying the wealthy HAVE to hire American workers or spend/invest in Amercan buisnesses to get those tax cuts. So they don't. Because government regulations are "socialism."
I find it funny that some people refuse to accept that the wealthy, but mostly, corporations, are rigging the system and it's hurting the economy.
And if people were paid based on how hard they worked, a lot of people who live paycheck to paycheck (and who are hardly living beyond their means) would be the ones in mansions.
Right now, unemployment would drop if the companies that could afford to hire, actually hired. But they're not. They're spreading their workforce thin, because their profits are soaring. And guess what? They aren't putting that money back into the economy. How about only giving tax breaks to companies who hire this year? Or a tax cut for companies that buy American made materials?
If Obama is a socialist he's the worst socialist in the history of socialists. No socialist would have forced Bush's tax cuts through.
Trust me, I hate paying taxes and I would be directly affected by Obama's tax plan. But it would help the economy. We need a better tax scale. This could be fixed very easily.
I keep giving you karma dude, and this time I did it again
Re: The battle of Wisconsin-labor unions
Absolutely stunning, brilliant, and the best post of your 2,162 posts on this board Mr. ID.
I'm at a loss for words at how accurately "nail meets head" your post is. Your post was so good, I actually took the time to read it out to a room full of people, because it was so accurate to the current situation, to which it was met with unanimous applause and support.
Your finest hour mister, wonderful job.
And I just want to re-state to buzz, although you already did, that Buzz that 'liveable wage' thing, only works if NOTHING bad ever happens to you. Your car breaks down, you get sick, you need health insurance, you knock up your girlfriend, your kids get sick, suddenly your parents need 24/7 elderly care, your rent goes up, etc.
There's so much stuff that goes on in life that completely destroys that "living wage", "you're living beyond your means" thing. And ironically, that attitude is actually quite communist. Reminds me of the Soviets back in the day thinking their low wages and "all new toaster" were 'good enough', while Americans lived high on the hog.
Re: The battle of Wisconsin-labor unions
Plenty of bad shit has happened to me, yet I've managed to not only survive, but thrive; and as much as I love to joke about being smarter than everybody else, I'm not doing anything anybody else couldn't have done. I've been there and done that.
My parents weren't rich at all. We barely got by. When I got older, my parents threw me out of the house at 18 (I deserved it too), I lived paycheck to paycheck and slept wherever someone would let me , charged stuff I couldn't afford but needed, had medical issues that cost me ten of thousands of dollars when I didn't have it. I had a car repo'd, declared bankruptcy, was part of a layoff...all before I was 22. I've been as close to hell as I ever care to be. I don't plan to ever go back.
I worked hard, learned from skilled people, and became very good at what I do now. When I started making decent money, I didn't blow it all, I put some away. I continue to put money away. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy life - I do. I can buy a new guitar if I want (I just don't buy the most expensive one) or go on trips (I shop around for deals). I am smart with my money. I could have a bigger house, but I don't. I could drive a nicer car, but I don't. People near where I live drive very nice cars, have boats, and lots of other toys, but live in a dump. It happens everywhere.
People have misplaced priorities, and instead of doing something to better themselves, complain about how unfair life is. Well, life is unfair. Crying about it isn't going to change anything. Waiting for someone to fix it for you isn't likely to help either. I have no sympathy for people that refuse to do anything to put themselves in a better situation in life. I don't have a college degree. Instead of crying about my situation, I took advantage of every opportunity presented to me to put myself in a better situation, and when I got into a better situation, I started saving some of the money so I wouldn't have to be in that situation ever again. If I can do it, anybody can do it. Don't depend on a union, don't depend on the government. Take responsibility for yourself and take as much control over your life as you can. While you'll (probably) never be able to control everything, you can keep yourself from controlling nothing.
- Communist China
- Rep: 130
Re: The battle of Wisconsin-labor unions
buzzsaw wrote:People are paid a livable wage. They choose to live beyond their means and expect to be bailed out. What is really a livable wage and what people think is a livable wage are two different things. And the premise that jobs pay less than market value is a joke. Jobs pay what people are willing to do them for, no less.
Oh god...this pure capitilism crap is such nonsense. This whole world is predicated on the strong taking advantage of the week. Is that part of pure capitilism?
For example...the way wal-mart runs itself...They pay their employees a small wage, and whatever profits that are established are not recycled back into the system. They run other local business out of business because they can charge lower based on an 'advantage' that they create while manipulating the system. Could you imagine a small town economy in which Wal-mart was the largest employer? That's a receipe that would put a strangle hold on any small town.
When businesses are individually owner, the money is recycled through the town and keeps it alive.
Wal-Mart actually uses hundreds of millions of dollars of public money to operate itself, especially if you factor in the medicaid costs their employees tend to use. It's actually subsidized in most towns. Wal-Mart isn't just capitalism, it has several advantages that a true free market system wouldn't give out.
But big box stores in general lower prices, and allow people to consume more. The basic premise, though unfortunate for local, less-efficient businesses, is a fine system.
Re: The battle of Wisconsin-labor unions
Plenty of bad shit has happened to me, yet I've managed to not only survive, but thrive; and as much as I love to joke about being smarter than everybody else, I'm not doing anything anybody else couldn't have done. I've been there and done that.
My parents weren't rich at all. We barely got by. When I got older, my parents threw me out of the house at 18 (I deserved it too), I lived paycheck to paycheck and slept wherever someone would let me , charged stuff I couldn't afford but needed, had medical issues that cost me ten of thousands of dollars when I didn't have it. I had a car repo'd, declared bankruptcy, was part of a layoff...all before I was 22. I've been as close to hell as I ever care to be. I don't plan to ever go back.
I worked hard, learned from skilled people, and became very good at what I do now. When I started making decent money, I didn't blow it all, I put some away. I continue to put money away. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy life - I do. I can buy a new guitar if I want (I just don't buy the most expensive one) or go on trips (I shop around for deals). I am smart with my money. I could have a bigger house, but I don't. I could drive a nicer car, but I don't. People near where I live drive very nice cars, have boats, and lots of other toys, but live in a dump. It happens everywhere.
People have misplaced priorities, and instead of doing something to better themselves, complain about how unfair life is. Well, life is unfair. Crying about it isn't going to change anything. Waiting for someone to fix it for you isn't likely to help either. I have no sympathy for people that refuse to do anything to put themselves in a better situation in life. I don't have a college degree. Instead of crying about my situation, I took advantage of every opportunity presented to me to put myself in a better situation, and when I got into a better situation, I started saving some of the money so I wouldn't have to be in that situation ever again. If I can do it, anybody can do it. Don't depend on a union, don't depend on the government. Take responsibility for yourself and take as much control over your life as you can. While you'll (probably) never be able to control everything, you can keep yourself from controlling nothing.
That's a great story, but the simple fact is not everyone catches those breaks. It just is what it is. You were lucky, probably more likely a combo of being blessed and determined, but it just isn't that black and white.
Alot of people do sit around waiting for change, and they shouldn't, but alot of people are shafted without any cause.
Life is unfair, yeah you're right, and people should toughen up and deal with it, but at the same time, rewarding a corporation and powdering their ass like a baby, simply because people need to "deal with it", isn't right either. There should be costs to companies to be in business, especially the more and more money they make.
Re: The battle of Wisconsin-labor unions
mitchejw wrote:buzzsaw wrote:People are paid a livable wage. They choose to live beyond their means and expect to be bailed out. What is really a livable wage and what people think is a livable wage are two different things. And the premise that jobs pay less than market value is a joke. Jobs pay what people are willing to do them for, no less.
Oh god...this pure capitilism crap is such nonsense. This whole world is predicated on the strong taking advantage of the week. Is that part of pure capitilism?
For example...the way wal-mart runs itself...They pay their employees a small wage, and whatever profits that are established are not recycled back into the system. They run other local business out of business because they can charge lower based on an 'advantage' that they create while manipulating the system. Could you imagine a small town economy in which Wal-mart was the largest employer? That's a receipe that would put a strangle hold on any small town.
When businesses are individually owner, the money is recycled through the town and keeps it alive.
Wal-Mart actually uses hundreds of millions of dollars of public money to operate itself, especially if you factor in the medicaid costs their employees tend to use. It's actually subsidized in most towns. Wal-Mart isn't just capitalism, it has several advantages that a true free market system wouldn't give out.
But big box stores in general lower prices, and allow people to consume more. The basic premise, though unfortunate for local, less-efficient businesses, is a fine system.
Uh huh...just ask anyone who works there...that don't qualifty as full time employees. They must be loving it.
And if the cost of running an 'efficient town' means everyone in that town must work at wal-mart because their business just died. All the while some of the bigger slices of the pie go somewhere far, far away from that town.
Re: The battle of Wisconsin-labor unions
Plenty of bad shit has happened to me, yet I've managed to not only survive, but thrive; and as much as I love to joke about being smarter than everybody else, I'm not doing anything anybody else couldn't have done. I've been there and done that.
My parents weren't rich at all. We barely got by. When I got older, my parents threw me out of the house at 18 (I deserved it too), I lived paycheck to paycheck and slept wherever someone would let me , charged stuff I couldn't afford but needed, had medical issues that cost me ten of thousands of dollars when I didn't have it. I had a car repo'd, declared bankruptcy, was part of a layoff...all before I was 22. I've been as close to hell as I ever care to be. I don't plan to ever go back.
I worked hard, learned from skilled people, and became very good at what I do now. When I started making decent money, I didn't blow it all, I put some away. I continue to put money away. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy life - I do. I can buy a new guitar if I want (I just don't buy the most expensive one) or go on trips (I shop around for deals). I am smart with my money. I could have a bigger house, but I don't. I could drive a nicer car, but I don't. People near where I live drive very nice cars, have boats, and lots of other toys, but live in a dump. It happens everywhere.
People have misplaced priorities, and instead of doing something to better themselves, complain about how unfair life is. Well, life is unfair. Crying about it isn't going to change anything. Waiting for someone to fix it for you isn't likely to help either. I have no sympathy for people that refuse to do anything to put themselves in a better situation in life. I don't have a college degree. Instead of crying about my situation, I took advantage of every opportunity presented to me to put myself in a better situation, and when I got into a better situation, I started saving some of the money so I wouldn't have to be in that situation ever again. If I can do it, anybody can do it. Don't depend on a union, don't depend on the government. Take responsibility for yourself and take as much control over your life as you can. While you'll (probably) never be able to control everything, you can keep yourself from controlling nothing.
I am very happy for you, and the success that has come your way. No one is crying about any situation though...and people did do something for themselves...they created a union...a group of people protecting the value of their trade/product/family. A group of people is always more powerful than one...except for if that one is a multi-multi-millionaire. Then the fight gets convoluted.
Truth is...I wish there didn't have to be a fight. I wish everyone looked out for each other, and didn't view their neighbors as people 'living off the system.'
If I could give one piece of advice in all of this...it would be...focus on yourself...take care of your business...but don't look down your nose at someone who isn't doing things the way you do them. And especially don't look down your nose at someone who is struggling. There is no need to create an enemy. I work so hard at what I do, I don't have time to sit around pointing my finger at everybody else.
I know there are people in this world who were handed the success I had to sacrifice so much for. But there were people before me that sacrificed much more...for less...and for me.
This kind of humility is what keeps me from taking myself too seriously. It's also what reminds me that I'm not the only one that matters.
Re: The battle of Wisconsin-labor unions
Geat story Buzz.
But imagine if that had happen to you at 50 or 60? Even as a 45 year old with a big family it's a different story. You're really lucky that happened to you at such a young age, and its a real testiment that you made it through it.
Again, and I hear it from a lot of conservatives, is that people were basically bringing it on themselves, making this wide assesment of people "living beyond their means," when that's just not the case. They weren't responsible for lay offs, their 401K's disappearing over night. Companies continuing to outsource and ship jobs over seas... And these aren't just manufacturing jobs either. You wake up one morning from living the "American dream" and you realize your life is upside down.
It's a lot harder for someone in their 40-50's to get work when they're competeing with 20-30 year olds, especially now when the younger generation is fighting amongst themselves for those same positions. Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is a nice saying but doesn't fit with a lot of peoples realities. Do people get themselves in trouble? Of course. Are ALL their problems based on their own decisons? Hell no. And you know the people who most fit that "Living beyond their means" discription, funny enough, are people who make over $250,000 a year... The top 20% of the country who "needed" those Bush tax cuts. Those are the people who get in trouble the most from their own financial behavior. Not the people we're talking about right now, living pay check to pay check.
On top of this you add health problems. Not even so much a catostrophic event like an accident, but something like diabetes; the cost for prescription drugs is disgusting. People can't afford it. Insurance is out of reach for a lot of people. The pharmecutical companies are raping medicare and insurance companies and holding a monopoly over this country in a death grip. No ones fighting them to cap the prices... Because it's a free market thing, even if it's killing people and the economy. They're even worse than OPEC.
In America, we're not supposed to let people fall through the cracks. And we shouldn't be letting the top 1% (hell, lets make it the top 20%) of the population make the rules and fix the system so it only benefits them at the expense of everyone else. In this recession, the unemployment rate as is, we're creating more billionaires and CEO's are making record salary and bonuses, while the economy shrinks, the margin between rich and poor widens and the middleclass disappears. That says everything.
- Communist China
- Rep: 130
Re: The battle of Wisconsin-labor unions
Communist China wrote:mitchejw wrote:Oh god...this pure capitilism crap is such nonsense. This whole world is predicated on the strong taking advantage of the week. Is that part of pure capitilism?
For example...the way wal-mart runs itself...They pay their employees a small wage, and whatever profits that are established are not recycled back into the system. They run other local business out of business because they can charge lower based on an 'advantage' that they create while manipulating the system. Could you imagine a small town economy in which Wal-mart was the largest employer? That's a receipe that would put a strangle hold on any small town.
When businesses are individually owner, the money is recycled through the town and keeps it alive.
Wal-Mart actually uses hundreds of millions of dollars of public money to operate itself, especially if you factor in the medicaid costs their employees tend to use. It's actually subsidized in most towns. Wal-Mart isn't just capitalism, it has several advantages that a true free market system wouldn't give out.
But big box stores in general lower prices, and allow people to consume more. The basic premise, though unfortunate for local, less-efficient businesses, is a fine system.
Uh huh...just ask anyone who works there...that don't qualifty as full time employees. They must be loving it.
And if the cost of running an 'efficient town' means everyone in that town must work at wal-mart because their business just died. All the while some of the bigger slices of the pie go somewhere far, far away from that town.
If it's really so terrible, don't shop there (I'm guessing you don't - I didn't either until I went to college and became poor). If your community is dying because the majority of people are deciding that lower prices of goods for them is worth the loss of community it symbolizes, then so be it.
How can you blame the store? People choose to shop there, they choose to work there. No one's arm is being twisted, no one's being abused.
