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- DoubleTalkingJive
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Re: GNRevolution Exclusive! Classic Rock Feb Mag Cover!
Welcome DCK!
IMO Zoot versoion is Zoots version nothing more nothing less...like you said everyone has their own story to tell..and ya cant just call someone a liar just cuz...from his recollectin thats what it was like working for GnR in 01-02...
Exactly, no one can just call Zoot a liar just because, he decided to tell his side of it and it's up to the reader to believe it or not, I feel he's just telling exactly what he went through, period. I'd love to hear an interview done with Merck, another person let go from the machine. That would take us through the most recent years.
Re: GNRevolution Exclusive! Classic Rock Feb Mag Cover!
I don't know why one shouldn't believe Tom Zutaut. First off, the man was there. Secondly, one needs to look at what was happening with the band during Zoot's era (between RIR3 and the Vegas gigs). Remember now that by comparison, this is relatively short time frame in the entire saga and Zoot's comments should be regarded first and foremost as a snapshot of that particular time. Not saying things had been remotely different before and/or after he was around, but he's wisely focusing on times he actually spent there.
Almost immediately after RIR3, at which all things GNR looked positive, Axl's machine grinded into a sudden halt. The album was promised to be released in June and now was the time to bend down and finish the job. Almost right after giving some positive interviews during his South American holiday, Axl returned to the studio and found himself unable to get the job done.
The previous A&R man, Bob Ezrin, who likely got the job in the first place for being notoriously critical towards the songs worked on with mainly Sean Beavan, had been shown the door by February 2001. Ezrin's era could be timed for around mid 2000 - late'00/early '01. Judging by Zoot's comments, Axl'd been out of touch with the album for the last six months or so, which amusingly coincides with the time Ezrin'd had most likely worked with the band. Not a stretch to imagine that Ezrin had made Axl lose confidence altogether, as the work poured into the album in between '98-00 had produced "three good songs". With Axl taking an increasingly hands-off approach, Buckethead wasn't hitting it off with RTB, and was seriously reconsidering his relationship to the band.
This was when Jimmy Iovine first approached Zoot. Live performances and a subsequent vacation hadn't helped Axl to relax and get his act together. Interscope obviously sought after a more mellow mediator, and hoped to find one in Zoot.
Zoot appeared like a breath of fresh air, the jolt Axl needed. In late February '01, tour dates in the UK and elsewhere started to trickle in. Things were seemingly looking good again, as the album might've made it for June. Come May, and trouble started again. Things just weren't seemingly working out with RTB, no matter that the band worked day and night in a studio setting.
05/10/01: GNR cancels the European tour, due to Buckethead's "internal haemorhagging". "An album, Chinese Democracy, has been underway for six years and is currently thought to be in the final mixing stages. Although Interscope, the band's label, has consistently declined to guess at a release date, the most recent speculation had the album out this summer, although that no longer appears to be the case."
05/30/01: European tour is rescheduled for December. In a summer interview, Beta would confirm the band would return to Brazil in early '02. With the Vegas gigs in the new year, it's certainly feasible a North American leg of the tour was eventually pencilled for January '02.
The album was delayed for unforeseen reasons from its Summer '01 release date, and was now pushed back six months to become a pre-Christmas release.
06/30/01: "Contrary to the popular rumor, Axl Rose has not fired manager Doug Goldstein of Big F.D., although they are "taking a break from each other." According to Goldstein, no legal steps have been taken to dissolve their relationship. He admits that the pair did have (yet another) falling-out over touring issues, but he expects that this one, like the others, will be long gone by the time Rose and crew hit the European circuit in December to make up for last May's canceled dates.
When told of Goldstein's comments, our source was not surprised. "I think Axl knows Doug is the only one who will put up with him," said our source.
Goldstein is promising that the new Guns N' Roses album, Chinese Democracy, will come out, and confirms that legendary A&R rep Tom Zutaut, the man who signed GNR to Geffen back in 1987, is being brought on board to make sure it will get done."
07/26/01: MTV Brazil reports Buckethead has left the band.
08/02/01: Buckethead alledgedly returns to the negotiating table with the band.
Tension, anyone? Ol' Dougie had a fallout with Axl over touring issues; ironically after he'd just rescheduled the band's European trek. Bucket had enough as well, which was seemingly the second time during the whole project already. This looks like the time when Axl decided there was "negative energy" surrounding the band and took Zoot with him to see Yoda.
10/12/01: Buckethead had returned to the fold (according to Zoot), but was considering alternate career options with the US military.
10/23/01: Buckethead is still in the band, he tried to quit but Axl talked him into coming back. On the condition that he only has to play/record with the band 3 days a week.
They are in the still in the studio recording two full albums, so when they finally release the first one, they can tour for a year and then release another one without going back into the studio. There won't be a tour this year.
Zoot's story holds a good deal of water, as Bucket had been said to have issues with someone in the band; never before had the fingers been pointed towards RTB.
Tom Zutaut was fired in the advance screening of Ridley Scott's Black Hawk Down. The film premiered on 12/18/01, which means Zoot didn't last a year in the project. RTB and Axl would soldier on for a month or two before parting ways. Soon, Merck would step into the house to see what's what.
A response...
Mysteron wrote:As far as I am aware, alot of the work for CD took place in the last few years, post the Zutaut era. That makes the Classic Rock article nothing more than tabloid blood for the gossip vampires.
It does indeed appear the bulk of the recordings that'd actually appear on the album have been completed in 2003-5, with some additional recording done in '06 and '07. The songs have pretty much remained the same, but they've been re-recorded with Axl as the producer.
As far as the 'tabloid blood for gossip vampires' line goes, I believe Zoot's description is a fair and honest account of what happened within the band during 2001. It's seven years old stuff, but seems accurate enough regardless.
SIC must be on vacation or is prepping a 32 page master thesis on all this.:haha:
Well, now that you mentioned it...
Re: GNRevolution Exclusive! Classic Rock Feb Mag Cover!
Welcome DCK! 5
IMO Zoot versoion is Zoots version nothing more nothing less...like you said everyone has their own story to tell..and ya cant just call someone a liar just cuz...from his recollectin thats what it was like working for GnR in 01-02...
Thank you and yes, that I can agree with you fully on. There's not lairs here or facts. Just interpretations from different human beings. Finding an objective truth is like looking for Santa.
Re: GNRevolution Exclusive! Classic Rock Feb Mag Cover!
Most of what Zutaut said had been said before by other people. I personally think he is telling the truth. Also, let's confirm what he said about the songs. I went back and read it again. He said when he got there, they had 50-60 songs spread out over 4-5 cd's. It was his job to sit with Axl and go through the material....obviously to see what Axl wanted to work on. By the time he left, he stated that 11-12 of those songs only needed a final mix to be ready for release. He did not comment on the quality of the material other than to say it was a great Gnr record. And, he did not say it did not have a single, he just said a general statement that records that sell alot need a good single. Finally, there was NEVER any indication from anyone that the label had rejected the album in 2002. As always, Axl obviously got cold feet from the fallout of the 2002 tour and obviously didn't put those final mixes on anything. The moral of this story is that nothing was ever completed in full until March 2007 when the band declared the recording to be done...and even that is debatable because if you are still mixing tracks, it is not done!
ps...the leaks we have are NOT final mixes...they are rough mixes and are definitely not mastered. Zoot confirmed that when talking about the Chinese Democracy song leak. Oh yeah, and I liked his comment that said the 2001-2002 version of CD smoked the leaked version's ass!:peace:
Re: GNRevolution Exclusive! Classic Rock Feb Mag Cover!
Oh yeah, and I liked his comment that said the 2001-2002 version of CD smoked the leaked version's ass!:peace:
Yeah, that was an intriguing comment. Considering that has always been one of my favorite songs(even before the leak), I'd sell my mother to hear it. It probably is more raw and has more balls than the leak. That intro is probably non existent, and likely little to no synth.
Re: GNRevolution Exclusive! Classic Rock Feb Mag Cover!
In the faint red light of the Rainbow Bar and Grill, Tom Zutaut sips at his drink and spills a bit of regret. It's been 19 years since he signed the then-unknown rock band Guns N' Roses to a contract with Geffen Records, where they turned into multiplatinum superstars. Back in those days, the Rainbow was their hangout of choice.
Years after he left the label, he returned in 2001 to try to coax Axl Rose, the band's magnetic leader and by then its only original member, into completing one of the most highly anticipated albums in the industry: an opus tentatively titled "Chinese Democacy." The deadline for turning in the album had passed two years earlier.
"I really thought I could get him to deliver the record," said Mr. Zutaut, who spent nine months trying. "And we got close."
He is speaking in relative terms. Mr. Zutaut is but one of a long series of executives and producers brought in over the years to try to conjure up the maddeningly elusive album - to cajole the reclusive rock star into composing, singing, recording, even just showing up. Like everyone else who had tried, or has tried since, Mr. Zutaut came away empty-handed. - NY Times
One of the main reasons why the NYT and CR articles mention covered the same ground is the obvious one; Zoot was interviewed for both articles, yet Jeff Leeds only used a direct quote from him as an opening hook. Moreover:
Mr. Rose appeared sporadically, some weeks just one or two days, some weeks not at all. "It was unorganized chaos," the same person said. "There was never a system to this. And in between, there were always parties to go to, different computers Axl was trying out or buying. There were times when we didn't record things for weeks."
So the studio technicians burned as many as five CD's per week with various mixes of different songs, which were driven to Malibu for Mr. Rose to study. The band's archive of recorded material swelled to include more than 1,000 digital audio tapes and other media, according to people who were there at the time, all elaborately labeled to chart the progress of songs. "It was like the Library of Congress in there," said one production expert who spent time on the album there.
By one count, the band kept roughly 20 songs it considered on the A list and another 40 or so in various stages of completion on the B list.
Leeds' article concurs that there were indeed roughly 60 separate songs in various stages of completion as early as in the Beavan era ('99). The song creating (I wouldn't use the term 'writing') started by late-night jams, and once there was enough material recorded, Axl would listen it through and pick things that'd sound good for him. What he was basically doing was being the guitar hero without having to master the instrument - just going through the impromptu parts and weeding out the cream of the crop. Then, by adding up and trying out different parts like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, something resembling actual song structures began to form. Remember, this was no garage band. It was Sean Beavan and a room full of seasoned studio technicians and sound engineers. Their job was to connect the dots with whatever Axl's sessions musicians made available to them, creating songs of which they'd have no idea how they'd sound like. Would they sound like radio-friendly hits, would they sound like songs at all? Try recreating 'the traditional GNR sound' by wandering in the dark to such a degree and you'll get an idea of the challenge Axl'd thrown to his crew.
The tragedy of CD is that it's Axl's solo album, the one he's been akin to do eversince the UYI days. But he never wanted that to replace what GNR was and represented to him and to others. Despite whatever difficulties he had with Slash and the others, he always wanted to have GNR to fall back into if the solo album stinks. But before he knew it, he was left alone with a recording agreement and Geffen breathing in his back, requesting the next GNR studio album. While Axl took up the challenge (along with the advance), he didn't have a clue on how to proceed. Slash, Izzy and Duff had always taken care of laying down the foundations to the songs (with songs like Estranged and November Rain serving as exceptions). While Axl undoubtedly had enough talent and experience to handle both the lyrics and vocals for a double-album without a hitch, writing one single GNR album on his own devices from the ground up was simply too daunting.
Re: GNRevolution Exclusive! Classic Rock Feb Mag Cover!
Leeds' article concurs that there were indeed roughly 60 separate songs in various stages of completion as early as in the Beavan era ('99). The song creating (I wouldn't use the term 'writing') started by late-night jams, and once there was enough material recorded, Axl would listen it through and pick things that'd sound good for him. What he was basically doing was being the guitar hero without having to master the instrument - just going through the impromptu parts and weeding out the cream of the crop. Then, by adding up and trying out different parts like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, something resembling actual song structures began to form. Remember, this was no garage band. It was Sean Beavan and a room full of seasoned studio technicians and sound engineers. Their job was to connect the dots with whatever Axl's sessions musicians made available to them, creating songs of which they'd have no idea how they'd sound like. Would they sound like radio-friendly hits, would they sound like songs at all? Try recreating 'the traditional GNR sound' by wandering in the dark to such a degree and you'll get an idea of the challenge Axl'd thrown to his crew.
The tragedy of CD is that it's Axl's solo album, the one he's been akin to do eversince the UYI days. But he never wanted that to replace what GNR was and represented to him and to others. Despite whatever difficulties he had with Slash and the others, he always wanted to have GNR to fall back into if the solo album stinks. But before he knew it, he was left alone with a recording agreement and Geffen breathing in his back, requesting the next GNR studio album. While Axl took up the challenge (along with the advance), he didn't have a clue on how to proceed. Slash, Izzy and Duff had always taken care of laying down the foundations to the songs (with songs like Estranged and November Rain serving as exceptions). While Axl undoubtedly had enough talent and experience to handle both the lyrics and vocals for a double-album without a hitch, writing one single GNR album on his own devices from the ground up was simply too daunting.
That there says a lot. He basically made GN'R into a machine, grinding out to match his vision. Firing people east and west, employing psychics to screen out energy, all to find the perfect mix.
Kinda megalomanic, which probably is what makes this project interesting in the first place.
