September 11 2001

James

This has always been a touchy subject, here and at the old site. Like most people, I try to discuss it without pissing on the graves of those who died that day. Don't have the time right now but I'm looking forward to a discussion on this since you guys are having a good discussion that's not getting ugly and without the insults.

For those who haven't read it, do yourselves a favor and read Project for a New American Century. This was a bible written by the neocons during the Clinton administration on what they wanted to do once getting in office. The 'big enchilada' of this manifesto was a "Pearl Harbor style attack" that would rally the American people behind them and allow them to wage war continuously in the name of "protecting American interests abroad". Guess what happened less than a year into Bush's presidency?

As far as planes hitting buildings and they always collapse, a B-25 hit the Empire State Building and as we all know, that building still exists.

buzzsaw

Is the Empire State Building steel? It looks like a lot of concrete from that picture, but I don't know.

The rest of that is all fine and dandy if you think Obama = Bush. If the world happens to end somehow later this year, are you going to credit the Mayans for doing it?

Intercourse

I think the American folks here should be open to a sound debate on the whole issue. Its kind of mad that 12 guys with parcel openers taking orders from a guy in a cave managed to get so far...

People need to ask of themselves & their enemies what drives them to such extremes?
As a man who saw some of the worst shit in Northern Ireland, it is an important question to ask and even more important that you take back what the other side answers you with using an open mind. You may not like what you are told, you may not even believe it, but you should be prepared to work on it.

It never is as simple as "they're just evil" or "they envy our freedom". Being that simplistic is as blind and stupid as the ordinary German citizen who once was comfortable saying "they are just Jews".

buzzsaw

I think the point people not here are missing is that it's been debated to death. It was THE topic of conversation for 5 years (at least). If there was something major to be found, it would have been found by now.

monkeychow

Furbush wrote:

Only a complete lunatic would believe that a building a fucking block away... hit by nothing... Had some scattered fires on the middle few floors... Would just collapse into it own footprint at nearly free fall speed.

Even at it's hottest, Jet Fuel (kerosene) doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel.
Just sayin'

I agree with some of your broader points that war is profitable to some and that 911 was used to justify fundemental shifts in usa foreign policy and civil liberties.

But about about the incident itself I'd like to mention:

1. Just because a jet didn't hit building 7 doesn't mean nothing hit it. The building was 400 feet away from where two buildings that were 1300 feet tall imploded with the force of a kiloton.

2. Jet Fuel may not burn hot enough to melt steel. But where does that theory account for the kenetic force of a 900,000 pound object smashing at 500 miles an hour into multiple load bearing structures. The sheer force of that would be reasonable to warp the structure causing it to struggle to carry the insane load it already must have held up - then add in the jet fuel fires and it's far more plausible.

monkeychow

I'm somewhere in the middle.

It's obvious that the authorities ceased upon this incident to justify measures they may have already wanted to take. Eg:

1. Reductions to Civil Liberties / Strengthening of Intelligence Powers
2. Proper conclusion to Iraq Problem (which had dragged on for the past decade due to the ineffectual ending of the 1990 gulf war)
3. General re posturing of american stance to "are you with us or against us" allowing for dealing with long term problem groups.

To me these are things that many usa governments (right or left wing) might want anyway - so it's hardly surprising that when an opportunity arose to sell it to the general public after this incident they gladly did so. That however doesn't mean to me that they necessarily needed to manufacture the attack. Maybe they were just responding in the expected way.

I'm not a scientist...but it doesn't seem that surprising to me that buildings from the 1970s , and such tall structures, just couldn't handle the sheer physics of this incident. Seems more plausible than the literally hundreds of people that would have had to work in tandem in public to fake it.

Sure, the governments might have milked it for all it's worth, but I'm not so sure they created it. The post 911 world is sad to me...the western nations are supposed to be the free world and the places where human rights are upheld..but instead we've tortured people and sunk to the level of what we're fighting in the first place it seems.

monkeychow

Although I do wonder about the pentagon part of it...where's the plane that hit it? Looks more like some kind of missile attack or something...but what do I know!

polluxlm

buzzsaw wrote:

LOL. I suppose they manipulated the home videos too and all of the people calling into radio stations were just making things up right? Man, if you believe this was some gov't conspiracy, you will believe just about anything.

You mean these "home videos"?

[youtube]uC03YC-TjaY&feature=relmfu[/youtube]

The media has been in the pocket of the CIA since the 50s. They've been faking the news with props and actors for at least 25 years. There's a reason they call the first gulf war "the cnn war".