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Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
Of course taxes have to go back to their NORMAL state BEFORE the irresponsible Bush tax cuts, that they couldn't even pay for. That's why they're temporary, you can't sustain them. Cutting military spending could pay for healthcare for ALL Americans.
All you're doing is ranting on what you think people are doing, and you have yet to back anything up with fact and dismiss anything that proves your point wrong. "Most people..." or "it's below them." These are your opinions, not fact. And they're not even the problem.
We waste more money on the rich, with tax cuts for corporations and people who don't need it, on military spending for companies politicans get kick backs for and all the subsidies to oil compnaies and farm companies, than all the lazy people living off the government put together.
You can't do enough cutting to the government to get us out of debt, or to save SS and medicaid. You have to abolish the Bush tax cus across the board. It sucks, but it's true. Then you need to restructure those programs along with the tax code to include deductions that benefit the economy and the people. It's not hard, they just don't want to do it.
I am the expert on working people. That's what I do. I don't need to back it up. And that is a big part of the problem in spite of your denials.
I am ok with getting rid of the tax cuts AFTER you do away with the spending. Giving more so they can continue to piss it away isn't the answer. Dems have shown no willingness to cut spending, but they've shown plenty of interest in spending more. Until that stops, it doesn't matter what else you do.
Cutting military spending? Are you crazy? That might be the absolute stupidest thing I have EVER heard anybody say, and people here have said some pretty stupid things over the years. Yes, lets cut the ONLY thing we have going for us these days. Good idea.
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
buzzsaw wrote:LOL. You're right. The fact that they are spending huge amounts of money on healthcare has no effect on it at all. LOL.
Can't talk to a socialist about money...they just think it grows on trees.
I already answered you, but you're ignoring it, yet again. Just throwing out generic terms like socialist (and not even using it properly, as most people do when they call people that) says that you know your argument doesn't hold water and that you don't know what you are talking about.
I've tried to talk to you logically, honestly, intelligently, and respectfully about this, and used real data to back up my arguments and to counter yours. But you are either in denial, or deliberately ignoring the facts just to suit your own ideological stance.
Healthcare seems to be your 9/11 conspiracy. You see what you want, damn the facts.
LOL. No, I see the truth, you see what you've been fed. It is you that is incapable of having a discussion about it. Good day.
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
You see ID, I've been up front from the beginning that I completely support healthcare reform that we can afford. That hasn't changed a bit, and nothing you've said says we can afford it. The rest of it is just you spewing rhetoric. That's not discussing; that's ignoring the only fact that matters and going off on all these other tangents.
Find a healthcare system we can afford. I don't think that's an unreasonable request. Not cut the military, not raise taxes. Find a sustainable, reasonable healthcare plan that we can afford. If you can't do it, there's nothing else to discuss because you've proven my point. If you can do it, I will support it 100%. If the healthcare system we have in place is so bad and filled with "corporate greed and profits", it should be easy to come up with a plan run by the gov't that eliminates the need to make a profit and ultimately saves everybody money, right? Take those profits and spread them to everybody in lower premiums and we all pay less, correct? Isn't that how it should work if the gov't is running the show? Why can it not be done without increasing taxes or cutting from the only thing we have going for us these days?
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
LOL. Not cut the military or raise taxes? You're not living in reality. Those are the problems, which you continue to ignore. Nevermind your rhetoric about lazy people being the problem, which is hysterical.
The Bush tax cuts is basically a stimulus, that was supposed to be temporary, because we can't afford it (to keep building that big bad military you want), so it's not about raising taxes, but letting them go back to normal.
You want to cut the programs that we need, but spend money on a military that we don't. We don't need anymore fighter jets, it's the biggest in the world. We don't need anymore navy ships, it's bigger than all the other worlds fleets combined. And there is more and more wasteful spending on contractors who rip us off, along with research that they know isn't going to ever produce results.
Oh, and whoever gets elected, your taxes are going up anyway. Have fun with that.
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
So wait a minute. Corporations are just raking in the profits, but the gov't can't even break even without raising taxes? Is that what you're saying? That's what it sounds like you're saying, but I may be misinterpreting you.
- Communist China
- Rep: 130
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
Canada is a resource rich nation with a small population. The US is the 3rd largest country in the world. So the comparison is tough. Personally I think diversity (regional, cultural, religious, ethnic, whatever) makes taxation less appealing. Canada has a ton a diversity culturally and ethnically I know, but regionally it's not comparable to the US. It's easier to manage an expensive state that's smaller and dealing with a more cohesive area.
What the US could do, if you reject freeing the health care market, is take advantage of its federalist structure, and allow the states to experiment with the system. If you think the states won't or can't do that, then why do you think a world of nation-states functions differently?
Massachusetts' attempt was not successful. Their initial cost estimates proved to be way too little, and their solution... strip certain care from legal immigrants. Still didn't save the state's budget, which tanked. TennCare in the 90s was even worse, though health policy has gotten better than that at least.
The best argument against this is that states would struggle to regulate insurance companies with a national presence, so the benefits of economies of scale would be lost. But the federal government's involvement has done nothing to change this anyway.
As for the larger budget problems, they are driven by our military and our entitlement programs. Both need a fundamental change. Our tax policy is lousy but it's not as big a deal as those two.
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
So wait a minute. Corporations are just raking in the profits, but the gov't can't even break even without raising taxes? Is that what you're saying? That's what it sounds like you're saying, but I may be misinterpreting you.
Grrr, I just typed out a very thought out post and the internet ate it! On top of it, I fucked up my finger doing yard work today, basically ripped my fingernail off, so typing this out isn't easy, so I'm pretty pissed right now.
I'll try again.
I'm saying taxes wouldn't be going up, but back to normal. Tax cuts were made that we couldn't pay for and they knew it. Corporations have been making more money than they ever have, along with CEO salaries, and the rising incomes of the top 1%, since the Bush tax cuts and deregulations kicked in. At the very same time, the middle class has shrunk, poverty has risen, the average income has gone down, disperity in wealth is growing at alarming rates, while outsourcing and unemployment is skyrocketing. This all started at the same time, it's not a coincidence. This wasn't done to help the economy but to reinforce a flawed ideology and help benefit the highest campaign contributers, at the expensive of everyone else.
So, I don't know why people are afraid of their taxes going back to normal, especially seeing that if Romney is elected they'll be imposing a national sales/consumption tax that will be directed at the middle-class. So your taxes are going up no matter what.
I've stated the military budget needs to be cut and refined. Libertarians will tell you it's too big and wasteful. Entitlements need to be restructured (I even gave my opinion for the best way to do it in this very thread) and the tax code needs to be restructured.
I support a public option. As for a single payer system, I dont see it happening anytime soon. What I don't understand is why you're oppsed to it, when you'd be paying the same in increased taxes that you're paying now for your insurance (probably even less). You won't be paying any more than you do now for what you're already getting, except now you can't be dropped when you get sick and your medical bills and procedures won't be disputed. Because now, the medical and prescription drug industries would have to negotiate their prices and costs with the government, like they do in every other industrialized nation. They don't call our healthcare industry the wild west for nothing.
That's what I'm saying, and I hope I stated it clearly.
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
I've lost long posts too and refused to retype them. I feel for ya. I've gotten in the habit of copying my work before hitting send just in case.
I understand the tax cuts were temporary. I'm not talking about that. The gov't should be able to provide healthcare at a lower price since profit isn't their motive without doing anything to taxes since one of the big complaints is insurance companies are profiting too much. Why couldn't they come up with a plan that did this?
And I agree with most of what you said about cutting defense (not military per se) restructuring entitlements and fixing the tax code, but not to the extent the Dems want to do it. The problem as always is the money being wasted. If they could stop getting ripped off by contractors and other waste, we could keep the tax cuts, have better healthcare, and help those in need. We could also make some progress towards the debt. That's what should happen, yet nobody is even suggesting it. Everybody wins, and that never flies.
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
Yup, restructuring entitlements that doesn't hurt the people who really need it and restructring defense spending would go a long way to helping keeping our taxes down at the same time really focusing on education, trade policies and incentivized corporate tax cuts that invest in American eployment and manufacturing. It's actually pretty infuriating because there are a lot of smart people who know how to do this very easily, but they're being ignored. So we basically totally agree.
*this post has been copied and saved for insurance purposes. 
Re: Americans oppose health care law despite supporting it
Yup, restructuring entitlements that doesn't hurt the people who really need it and restructring defense spending would go a long way to helping keeping our taxes down at the same time really focusing on education, trade policies and incentivized corporate tax cuts that invest in American eployment and manufacturing. It's actually pretty infuriating because there are a lot of smart people who know how to do this very easily, but they're being ignored. So we basically totally agree.
*this post has been copied and saved for insurance purposes.
Didn't we figure that out pages ago? Then we started thinking again.
If they could fix that stuff, everything we were going back and forth on doesn't matter because those issues could be addressed reasonably.
