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Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
Neemo, I don't know what you think of as the black market, because you can get them through family connections, friends, the internet and flea markets. That's 350 million guns. And yes, it's in our rights, you can't touch it. But I have no problem with gun laws and I've made that very very clear, but I don't know what you're suggesting they do in a realistic manner here. But you cannot control over 350 million guns already in circulation.
And, again, our states have different gun laws, some being very strict and you can research that yourselves if you didn't know that.
We have strict alcohol laws here. And we still have very high rates of death and not just from car accidents, so I think there's some confusion there too. Again, I don't know what you're saying or equating cough medicine and meth and alcohol and guns... You're put on a list here in TN when you buy medicines that are used to create meth and you're only allowed so many purchases in a certain amount of time. That's pretty stiff. And it's done nothing to curb the meth use. And again, I explained my comparison between alcohol and guns.
I still don't understand generalizing America, because your last comment was absolutely wrong. I'm not aginst gun laws or even outlawing certain guns. I'm talking about reality.
And then your comment about our military spending ... I have no idea what you're talking about here either, I guess to divert that money to do something against guns??? Yes, some of that money should be diverted -- to our healthcare and educations systems.
Once again, I'm more concerned about the people who do this and I'm stunned none of you seem to be in this discussion.
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
Ten arguments (based on reason and evidence?) offered against gun control since yesterday's mass slaughter (via Richard Dawkins)
1) Prohibition of alcohol didn't work -- avoiding the fact, based on strong evidence, that restricting guns DOES work in country after country.
2) Cars (used for transportation) are dangerous -- therefore there should be unlimited access to machines, the only purpose of which is killing. (This is like saying, since car transport is dangerous, we should allow cigarettes in closed spaces. Huh?)
3) The Oklahoma City bombers didn't use guns. In other words, "Because handfuls of people sometimes commit terrorist acts, acts that take long-term planning, we want to make sure it's legal to shower America with guns so that spontanous acts of violence are common and the killing can be done with great efficiency on the spur of the moment."
4) "a well-regulated militia" means making sure any random person can get semi-automatic weapons.
5) A nut in China injured school children with a knife, therefore in America we want to make sure a similar person can kill -- not injure -- kill -- and kill easily and, if they choose, kill in large numbers, on the spur of the moment, whenever someone flies into a jealous rage or psychotic state.
6) It's about insanity not guns -- this argument is apparently based on the hypothesis that Americans are a lot more insane than the British, Australians, French and the people of many other developed countries where guns are restricted and far fewer people die from guns.
7) Teachers and (some have actually said this!) children should have guns in school -- despite the fact that the Connecticut killer's mother apparently owned the semi-automatics that the killer used to kill...his own mother and so many children -- and -- the mother worked at the school where the killing occured.
8) Dictators from an earlier time used gun control, therefore the success of gun control in modern democracies should be ignored.
9) Mike Huckabee says it's because we don't have prayer in school which is as intellectually strong as arguments 1 through 8.
10) Finally the classic: it is disrespectful to the children who died to discuss methods of preventing similar killings. (Huh?).
Where are the arguments based on logic and reason that address the success of gun laws in major democracies like Germany, France, Spain and Australia? Or is religious gun worship enough until the next time a mass murder occurs. Meanwhile, every week, individuals are killed in some jealous rage in far greater numbers than in other industrialized societies -- with the use of machines designed for the efficient and spontaneous killing of humans. If there are non-religious arguments, evidence-based arguments, against gun control, please offer the evidence, or we will we be offered only more straw men and emotional rants?
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
You cannot compare any other country with America for the simple reason none of your countries have the amount of guns already in circulation. Over 350 million. That list is ridiculous, btw.
DAVID CULLEN:
"Cullen went onto explain that the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Secret Service have released comprehensive reports analyzing the character traits of these mass murders, only to find there is no single profile.
Rather than a single profile, there are four major types of personalities associated with mass murderers like Holmes. There is the deeply depressed —probably the most common of the four personality types; there is the clinical or sadistic psychopath, which we saw in Eric Harris with the Columbine shooting; there is the deeply mentally ill like Seung-hui Cho of the Virginia Tech Massacre, a rarely seen personality in association with these mass killings; and there is the terrorist, someone who carries out mass murder for political reasons with a clear intent and clear message."
Is that so hard to try and go after the people? We've already got the research. It's not that difficult.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
It won't matter how many guns are in circulation if you outlaw bullets. How many bullets do people realistically have stockpiled. It would have to run out eventually.
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
Neemo, I don't know what you think of as the black market, because you can get them through family connections, friends, the internet and flea markets. That's 350 million guns. And yes, it's in our rights, you can't touch it. But I have no problem with gun laws and I've made that very very clear, but I don't know what you're suggesting they do in a realistic manner here. But you cannot control over 350 million guns already in circulation.
i dunno what they can do either....but if you make selling of guns illegal ecept through certain outlets and that certain guns are not allowed to be sold then all of a sudden all these resources for purchasing them become fewer and farther between, if you cant see that then i dunno what to say, its not gonna happen over night, i never said it would
you flat out say it cant be done...and i say where there is a will there is a way
also with alcohol....at any time of the day in the USA you can go to any store and buy beer whiskey whatever....right? well in ontario canada there are 2 stores you can go to
the liquor control board of Ontario (LCBO) or the beer store thats it...they open at 10 or 11 and close at reg business hours, none of this 2:00am runs to the variety store to prolong a drunken stupor (not saying that canadians do not get ridiculously hammered cuz we are known for it, but thats one less temptation to go out for a quick drive for more beer, or whatever, as a society we have been pretty good at turning around the populace to buy into the strict DUI laws...when i was a parents were drinking and driving all over the damn place, 25-30 years later its very taboo to even have a drink when they go out if they know they need to drive (2 or 3 drinks puts you over the limit here and at minimum is a license suspension if caught) peoepl still drink and drive not saying canadians are saints but jtsu saying that dui related deaths have decreased over the years
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
Take Canadas view on alcohol laws and tripple it and you got Norway. Shit works.
misterID is bacially saying you can't do anything with guns in the US because they are simply there, and too many. I thought Australia did some actions on this matter...?
- A Private Eye
- Rep: 77
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
I'm staggered at the attitude here. We get it there's 350 million guns in America and making guns and ammo illegal today won't change that number tomorrow, but it will change that number in 20/50 years. How can it not make a difference long term?
Clearly there is more than one problem/issue here, and it won't stop this kind of thing happening as we've seen in other countries but it might reduce the frequency of this type of event and the numbers that die each time. How can that not be worth exploring?
It would seem unfortunately that (at least from what I've read in this thread) your right to bear arms is more important to you than the safety of your loved ones. If (and I may be totally wrong) that is a widely shared view across the US you will continue to suffer these tragedies.
These regular mass shootings we see in the US are mimickery, the next psycho is just copying the last one, how the fuck do you go about weeding out the guys who might be likely to do it? I can't even begin to imagine where you would start, what you can begin to do is try and make their access to weapons that can kill masses of people in seconds a bit harder.
How many more of these tragedies must you suffer before something changes?
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
misterID wrote:Neemo, I don't know what you think of as the black market, because you can get them through family connections, friends, the internet and flea markets. That's 350 million guns. And yes, it's in our rights, you can't touch it. But I have no problem with gun laws and I've made that very very clear, but I don't know what you're suggesting they do in a realistic manner here. But you cannot control over 350 million guns already in circulation.
i dunno what they can do either....but if you make selling of guns illegal ecept through certain outlets and that certain guns are not allowed to be sold then all of a sudden all these resources for purchasing them become fewer and farther between, if you cant see that then i dunno what to say, its not gonna happen over night, i never said it would
you flat out say it cant be done...and i say where there is a will there is a way
also with alcohol....at any time of the day in the USA you can go to any store and buy beer whiskey whatever....right? well in ontario canada there are 2 stores you can go to
the liquor control board of Ontario (LCBO) or the beer store thats it...they open at 10 or 11 and close at reg business hours, none of this 2:00am runs to the variety store to prolong a drunken stupor (not saying that canadians do not get ridiculously hammered cuz we are known for it, but thats one less temptation to go out for a quick drive for more beer, or whatever, as a society we have been pretty good at turning around the populace to buy into the strict DUI laws...when i was a parents were drinking and driving all over the damn place, 25-30 years later its very taboo to even have a drink when they go out if they know they need to drive (2 or 3 drinks puts you over the limit here and at minimum is a license suspension if caught) peoepl still drink and drive not saying canadians are saints but jtsu saying that dui related deaths have decreased over the years
We have dry counties here, too.
Private eye,
Again, I'm talking reality. You cannot ban guns or bullets. Not going to happen. That's not realistic. And when people use that kind of rhetoric it makes it that much more difficult to get any gun legislation passed, because the gun lobby uses it against you. You are scaring people that you're going to take their guns away and they invest more money in getting any kind of gun law blocked.
Also, we have stopped MANY mass shootings by the efforts of people who notice people on the brink of such a thing and force authorities to take action, so saying that's impossible but getting rid of guns or bullets isn't... That's laughable. I'm sorry, but it is. Gun laws didn't stop those potential tragedies, it was the profiles of mentally ill people and either parents, school counselors or therapists who took action to stop it. How many more tagedies is it going to take before you realize that stricter gun laws would not have stopped it. I would hope before you make blanket statements you would actually take the time to look this stuff up instead of just venting and, ahem, DCK, ahem, copying and pasting some nonsensical article with some guy saying exactly what you want to hear.
And you didn't read the thread correct, it's not about the right to bear arms, because I've said I'm for gun control. But I'm not delusional to think they are going to change our constitution EVER.
People have strong feelings and opinions on guns. I understand that. But there doesn't seem to be a realistic point or argument on how to handle THIS situation in this discussion from some of you guys except more gun laws, ban guns, ban bullets, comparing us to countries that are unrelatable, who are living in a totally different circumstances. I'm talking reality.
And I've offered up ways to stop it including background checks and stricter gun laws (pass as many gun laws as you want) that go to the root of the problem and they have been ignored because, I guess, they don't advocate banning guns.
- A Private Eye
- Rep: 77
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
I didn't copy and paste anything.
So plenty of tragedies have been prevented by noticing people on the brink, that's great (genuinely) but it didn't save anyone yesterday, nobody noticed this guy going off the rails. Had he not been able to get his hands on 2 handguns and an automatic rifle then yesterday doesn't happen. I can't put it more simply than that, nothing will completely stop this happening but if you combine careful monitoring of those that are a potential risk along with reducing everybodies access AK47s then these kind of events and the numbers that die are bound to reduce.
Maybe your right and they won't change the constitution although I suspect if some senators son gets shot dead in a situation like this they might look at it closer.
