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Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
...the fact still remains that no mass shooting has ever taken place in the US anywhere where there are a lot of guns.
This is where the idea of more guns becomes less idiotic than it sounds on the surface. I agree it sounds crazy. But as they say facts are facts.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
By dismissing things that are at the very least partially true as clearly false, you have no hope of contributing to the solution.
That's fine, it's not my country with problematic levels of gun violence, so I don't need to contribute.
It's my opinion that it's right to dismiss those arguments, they're entirely simplistic, and although as you said are "partially" true on face value not a one of them holds up to any serious level of scrutiny without descending into absurdity.
It's like discussing if a girl asked to be raped by the outfit she wore, you aren't even allowed to bring that up as a defence here as the courts have wasted enough time proving why it's inaccurate. Guns don't kill people - people kill people - should be along the same lines. You don't believe it yourselves even or there wouldn't be such a fuss about who does and doesn't have weapons of mass destruction. It's just a pointless distraction and exercises in semantics.
I would explain why the rest of them are wrong again, but it's well known to everyone but the NRA and people have critiqued them in better detail than I'm going to do on this forum, and as I said, the major problem is that it's time to move on from wasting time on them.
I'd like to think one day as a global community we'll be mature enough to discuss the real issues without the sideshow.
Anyhow, as I said, I'll agree to disagree, so as you were, and I guess maybe you guys can just head over to the town with the most guns where you'll feel safest 
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
4. Mass killings have a direct link to mental illness. Since no one wants to hear about it, and I've already pointed out that there is a system to deal with this, with psychological profiles that HAVE been identified and HAS stopped many mass shootings and serial klillers, I'll not say anymore... Except BAN GUNS!
So we concluded that mass killings and school shootings in the US are directly connected to mental illness, since you got more nutjobs than the rest of us combined? Remove the nutjobs, and no shootings right? I would be interested in seeing the research on exactly WHY the US got more nutjobs than the rest of us.
You also get the wrong idea. It's not about banning guns. Do you think Norway has banned guns? Do you think Canada has banned guns? It's about common sense gun control. The rest of us got it. For the most part it works, statistically it works a lot better than what you got going on. You portray a black/white insight, it's either guns or NOT guns. It doesn't work like this.
Here's a bit of gun control
To own a gun in Norway, one must document a use for the gun. By far the most common grounds for civilian ownership are hunting and sports shooting, in that order. Other needs can include special guard duties or self defence, but the first is rare unless the person shows identification confirming that he or she is a trained guard or member of a law-enforcement agency and the second is practically never accepted as a reason for gun ownership.
There are special rules for collectors of guns. They are exempt from many parts of the regulation, but, in turn, they must meet even more narrow qualifications. Collectors may purchase, but not fire without permission, all kinds of guns in their respective areas of interest, which they have defined in advance.
Ownership is regulated in paragraph 7,[1] and responsibility for issuing a gun ownership license is given to the police authority in the applicant's district.
Rifle and shotgun ownership permission can be given to "sober and responsible" persons 18 years or older. The applicant for the permission must document a need for the weapon. Two exceptions exist to this age qualification. Persons under the age of 18, but over 16 may apply for rifle or shotgun ownership licence with the consent of parents or guardian. For handguns, the lowest ownership age is 21 with no exceptions allowed. For inherited weapons, it is up to the local police chief to make a decision based on the individual facts of the case.
An applicant must have a clean police record in order to obtain an ownership license.
Gun ownership rates vary throughout the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland has a very high rate of gun ownership, one of the highest in the world. In contrast England and Wales have considerably lower rates and Scotland has the lowest in the United Kingdom. Private ownership of firearms is common in many rural areas of Britain.[61] Crime involving firearms has historically been very low in the UK. The gun crime rate rose between 1997 and 2004 but has since slightly receded,[62] while the number of murders from gun crime has largely remained static over the past decade.[63] Over the course of the 20th century, the UK gradually implemented tighter regulation of the civilian ownership of firearms through the enactment of the 1968, 1988, 1994 and 1997 Firearms (Amendment) Acts[64] leading to the current outright ban on the ownership of all automatic, and most self-loading, firearms in the UK. The ownership of breech-loading handguns is, in particular, also very tightly controlled and effectively limited (other than in Northern Ireland)[65] to those persons who may require such a handgun for the non routine humane killing of injured or dangerous animals. In 2007, the number of deaths in Britain (population 60.7 million) from firearms was 51, and in 2008 it was 42, a 20-year low, with vast parts of the country recording no homicides, suicides or accidental deaths from firearms.[66]
Ownership of most types of firearm in the UK requires either a Shotgun Certificate (SGC) or a Firearms Certificate (FAC). Both of these are issued by local police after the applicant has met the required criteria. For a Shotgun Certificate the applicant need demonstrate that they can securely store the firearms (usually a gun safe bolted to a solid wall), have no criminal convictions, no history of any medical condition or disability including alcohol and drug related conditions, no history of treatment for depression or any other kind of mental or nervous disorder, or epilepsy. Once a SGC is granted the person is free to purchase single shot, multi-barrelled and repeating shotguns of lever action, pump action or semi-automatic with non detachable magazine that hold no more than 2 rounds of ammunition, plus one in the breech. There is no restriction on the number of shotguns that can be held on a SGC nor are there any restrictions on the amount of ammunition one can possess. The shotguns can be used wherever one has permission.
The criteria required for the grant of a Firearms certificate is far more stringent. Alongside safe storage requirements and checks on previous convictions and medical records, the applicant must also demonstrated a Good reason for each firearm they wish to hold (Good reason may include hunting, pest control, collecting or target shooting). Police may restrict the type and amount of ammunition held, and where and how the firearms are used.[67] Historically, most certificates approved for handguns listed "self-defence" as a reason. Since 1968 in mainland Britain, self-defence is not considered an acceptable "good reason" for firearm ownership (however use of a licensed firearm in self-defence is often justified provided that the victim can prove they used necessary and reasonable force). Only in Northern Ireland is self-defence still accepted as a reason. The police should not amend, revoke (even partially) or refuse an FAC without stating a valid reason. (Section 29(1) of the 1968 Act gives the chief officer power to vary, by a notice in writing, any such condition not prescribed by the rules made by the Secretary of State. The notice may require the holder to deliver the certificate to the chief officer within twenty one days for the purpose of amending the conditions. The certificate may be revoked if the holder fails to comply with such a requirement.)
Air rifles under 12 ft·lbf (16 J) and air pistols under 6 ft·lbf (8.1 J) can be purchased legally by anyone over the age of 18, and do not require a licence, however, licensing is being discussed for all air weapons in Scotland.[68]
Armed teachers, dear fucking lord. I would not come near such society. I worked at a school once, as an assistant. In the US I would have to armed. Like some gung-ho school militia waiting for the bad guy to show up.
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
Bono wrote:I'd bet everything I own on the fact I know way more about your culture than you do Canada's. Only a complete idiot would sit there and say Canadians are blind to the situation in America and just couldn't relate or have any understanding about what's happening. It's like you think Canada is some far off foreign land and we have no grasp on what America is. It's like you think you're North Korea cloaked in a blanket of secrecy. WAKE UP! Canada more than anyone has had a front row seat for for over 100 years. The fact you think we can't grasp what you're all about is asinine.
buzzsaw wrote:Different. And right about now I'm thinking that's in our favor.
Arrogance and ignorance personified.
Just bolding the irony. lol
there's is no irony there. It's a simple fact that Canadians learn more about the United States than you guys learn about us. And I'd be willing to bet everything I own that I have a better grasp on American culture than ID has on Canadian culture. It's also a flat our ridiculous statement to suggest that as a Canadian I can't understand how America works because it's oh so foreign. Gimme a break. As Canadians we are bombarded with your culture every single day. EVERY SINGLE DAY in mass amounts.
And when the world has put certain measures into place that are working and you brush it off as "nah wouldn't work for us cause we're so different and better off for it" THAT is ignorance and arrogance personified. Clearly your situation with gun violence is NOT better off than the rest of us so what are you going on about saying you're different and better off for it. Such an absurd comment on your part.
What you guys fail to understand or simply refuse to understand is this. Those of us advocating for tougher gun laws and even banning certain models are not dismissing that mental illness is a major issue that needs to be dealt with. Sadly mental illness isn't something tangible that you can fix instantly or even have a significant impact on. There is nothing you can do today that can have a major impact tomorrow. It's a huge black cloud of uncertainty and it's gonna take a lot longer than any of us have on this earth to solve the issue of mental illness, especially from people who are not being treated or often times show no outward signs. It doesn't mean you/we should dismiss it it just means it's only part of the problem.
Gun control is another part of the problem and is tangible and you can take steps today that will start having an impact tomorrow. BAN military grade weapons. There is no need for them. NOBODY needs an assault weapon that can spray hundreds of bullets per minute. It's beyond reason why those are even legal. Put measures into place regarding proper storage of weapons, proper licensing, waiting periods, registration, back ground checks etc etc etc. All of it. Enforce it. People caught with weapons need to be fined heavily and in certain cases jailed.(yeah I know the court systems suck), Not a slap on the wrist. The problem will not be solved tomorrow or next month or even next year but you put in place numerous steps to begin changing your gun culture. And if people don't like it too fucking bad. It's 2012 not 1789. Get over your outdated right to bar arms. Eventually people will become accustomed to it and it won't be a big deal. But to sit back and say nothing can be done, nothing will change, etc is just stupid. Of course nothing will change with that attitude other than get worse, but when you start making changes things change. Imagine that.
I mean my god yeah Americans have a lot of guns so instead of throwing your arms up and saying it's hopeless do something about it. But no the second someone suggests that, you feel your rights and freedoms are being infringed upon. I can only speak for myself but I feel pretty damn free in Canada. My civil rights seem to be intact despite our gun laws. Then again we're just some backwoods country with a population of roughly 4000 and what would we know about MERICA! Or civil rights for that matter.
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
Nobody has come up with a viable solution. Nobody is throwing up their arms and saying it's hopeless, we're saying the simplistic ideas aren't going to work. You're not going to get the bad guys to give up the millions of guns they have, and you're not going to get the vast majority of legal gun owners to give up theirs even if a law passes tomorrow banning all guns. This is simply stating the reality of the situation.
It's a complex problem that you guys want to simplify. There is no simpliying this. You can argue all day that Americans are wrong to believe what they believe, but it won't change what we believe.
Again, this is coming from a guy that doesn't own a gun and isn't interested in owning a gun. I think some gun owners are just as crazy as some of you seem to think they are. I think arming teachers is as crazy as some of you think it is. However, the fact still remains that none of these mass shootings has ever happened somewhere where there are a lot of guns present. You cannot completely dismiss that fact.
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
^^ What Buzz said.
Again, with Mental Illness: Not saying the ratio of mentally ill is greater in the US. It's actually easier than gun control. Mass shootings and killings have been stopped more and more recently, which you guys are glossing over. It's already working. There is a 4 point profile that can be used to have an even more significant impact than it already has, with family members and therapists involvement. We just have no system in place to deal with it properly on a consistant level. And guess what, these things will always happen. Gun violence in the United States has been going down (a stat which DCK mysteriously hasn't posted), but these things will always happen and the media will rape it for all it's worth.
And another thing you guys are dismissing, the amount of guns we have here. The moment you start banning guns (yes, that's what we're talking about here) that's the moment arms dealing skyrockets as the value on those guns rise. Like England found out, the violence rises after banning guns -- the difference here is that England didn't have as many guns and bullets in circulation in a country our size. More people would be comitting armed robberies searching for guns, which would be more valuable than gold.
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
Pretty much agree with everything Buzz & ID have said and fought for. It's really not about "you guys in Canada and Europe" are wrong, as much as it's just trying to make you guys understand how different we are, and we are born and we are raised and we are indoctrinated and our entire culture here in America.
"But it's fatally flawed"
No it's not. You just don't understand it, because you weren't born here and you don't understand how we roll. Comments like "the wild west of America", are ignorant and show obvious lack of knowledge of how the country is worked.
We get it... you don't get it. It'd be like me going up to and telling a black man (i'm white) how it is to be a BLACK man. He'd look at me and laugh. Just like a black man will never know what it's like to be white. He can't. The same thing with gay vs. hetero.
Its the same thing with America versus everyone else. You just don't know, so I forgive you because you know not what you say.
I would never go to Canada and start poking you in the shoulder and go "yer wrong, you's need to do it the right way". Never, ever. Canada's survived this long, just like America, so what they've got works for them. I don't know what it is to be Canadian and would never dictate to them (that universal health care thing sounds good).
You can't understand. It's a cultural thing, of which we really don't want change from it, because we've "been there, done that". It doesn't work. IT SHOULD. But it doesn't. This is the country we live in, and alot of non-Americans are just refusing to accept that.
If Neemo or Bono feels safer across the border, they should. Because they are home. In their homeland. That's why I feel safe in America. I don't really see it as anymore than that. Guns have nothing to do with it.
I could get mugged and stabbed in Vancouver no different than Seattle.
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
holy fuck.
thanks for your forgiveness.
& fwiw it's absolutely nothing like you going up to a black guy & tell him how it is to be black, or a straight man how it is to be straight..
people can't understand your culture?
man oh man.. this is such silly bullshit.
this notion of the implausibility of change isn't, like w/p much anything, solely confined to a section of americans. there are plenty of people in other countries/other cultures who reject change in their environments & politics.
YOU ARE NOT DIFFERENT. fucking hell. this is just too silly.
considering the changes american culture over the past 50 yrs (or elsewhere for that matter to, cause people are the same wherever they're found at the end of the day) it's frankly baffling to believe there couldn't be changes on the issue of guns. it's a silly argument you guys are protesting. your society is proof changes can be made, yet you're arguing the exact opposite.
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
buzzsaw wrote:...the fact still remains that no mass shooting has ever taken place in the US anywhere where there are a lot of guns.
This is where the idea of more guns becomes less idiotic than it sounds on the surface. I agree it sounds crazy. But as they say facts are facts.
i told you before, facts aren't facts.
they're a device for obfuscation & propaganda.
guns are not tools of protection, they're tools of destruction.
you protect yourself w/love & care. of caring for the sick, the mentally sick. you don't protect your society w/ready-made deadly weapons.
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
buzzsaw wrote:buzzsaw wrote:...the fact still remains that no mass shooting has ever taken place in the US anywhere where there are a lot of guns.
This is where the idea of more guns becomes less idiotic than it sounds on the surface. I agree it sounds crazy. But as they say facts are facts.
i told you before, facts aren't facts.
they're a device for obfuscation & propaganda.
guns are not tools of protection, they're tools of destruction.
you protect yourself w/love & care. of caring for the sick, the mentally sick. you don't protect your society w/ready-made deadly weapons.
Facts aren't facts? Are you kidding?
So what's your explanation for this odd coincidence?
You don't understand us, nor are you making an effort to understand us. That's fine, but don't pretend you're better than we are because you believe what you believe and it's somehow morally superior to what we believe.
This country was founded on certain principles. People believe strongly in those. You can't understand that, and that's fine. You just need to walk away from this discussion because you're not capable of helping come up with a workable solution. On top of that, you're not trying to; you're just trying to claim how morally superior you are.
