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Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
Because government say they love you and people believe it. Apart from certain segments in the USA it's the same I'd say. Government are very good at making people forget their long sheet of misdeeds.
You know your gov't isn't necessarily the only gov't you should be concerned with.
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
Yes, but for whatever reason most folks think this Pax Americana is the norm and will last forever.
The right to defend yourself and your property should be enough of an argument though. Be it against criminals, the government or foreign governments. It really is unfathomable to me that people actually expect the police to help you out. Not only is it unrealistic due to resources and response times, but it's not even part of their job. Their job is to protect and serve the law, not you.
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Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
If you're under attack from a criminal then by definition they're breaking the law which is the polices business. So doesn't it kind of work out to be the same thing anyway?
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
If you're under attack from a criminal then by definition they're breaking the law which is the polices business. So doesn't it kind of work out to be the same thing anyway?
It would if the police were at your house already. Usually they aren't. By the time they respond, you're dead and the criminals are long gone with your stuff.
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
If you're under attack from a criminal then by definition they're breaking the law which is the polices business. So doesn't it kind of work out to be the same thing anyway?
Not really since he's not a criminal until something has already happened to you. Their primary relationship is with the perps, to catch them once they've been identified as such. Do the police stop and help you if they see you get assaulted? After a while maybe, but the first thing they'll do is go after the bad guy.
And that is only in the cases where you can actually contact the police and they arrive at their absolute best response time. Usually you'll be on your own.
To me the police function more as a stabilizing force in society. They make society as a whole become more peaceful. That doesn't mean it's risk free or that you won't be one of the unlucky ones.
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
Does anyone in Europe think that there's no reason to worry about a war with a government? I know it's happened several times in this country. It's happened more than several times in Europe. I'm not sure why you guys think that isn't even a possibility...
Unless you're in Russia or Italy, I really believe that in any typical western country you can be pretty sure that there's not going to be a war between people and government. Why? Because we have democracy and freedom of speech as our prime tools to prevent a potential civil war. For some countries (such as the ones mentioned before), the combination of a relatively impoverished country, an unrealistic socialist financial regime and overly developed patriotism seems like a volatile mix that makes these country's citizens a good deal more vulnerable to their governments, but there's still no reason to believe that owning a gun is the better approach compared to actually going out on the streets and protesting, convincing people of your opinions. Italy seems to actually be recovering from Berlusconi, Russia seems to be going in the wrong direction with Putin's power plays...
I'm actually surprised that the "militia" argument is still used. After all your own country's history shows you that this idea has no place in a modern western society. Look at what happened to Kennedy, Lincoln, Gabrielle Giffords, ... all examples of people resorting to guns to fight their government. How can you not say that it actually hurts democracy if every gun-owner with a different political opinion can take it upon himself to start an actual "war" with your government. There is no way that the democratic mandate of a war on government can be tested, you will by definition shift power from the majority to the vocal and armed minorities.
Think of it this way, if it ever comes to the point in the US where you need to resort to armed combat against your own government you - the citizens of the US - have probably already made a good number of mistakes that allowed your government to erode your other, more important rights first. If you safeguard those other, much more important rights there is no way that you will ever need to use your gun against your government.
Looking at the arab spring, by the way, also shows you that it doesn't take permissive gun legislation to allow an effective militia. Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, ... all have much more restrictive gun legislation than the US or Belgium (according to gunpolicy.org). Yet, in those countries we have effectively seen civil warfare overthrow government. When people really need guns to fight their government, they will find them. Regardless of local legislation.
Basically, if you can't vote them out because the majority doesn't agree they need to go, why would you be entitled to rise up against your government??
As for worrying about other country's governments, that's a task for the army, not the people.
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
Wait, you asked a question, I provided my answer. Don't think that after 43 pages, I haven't realized that you won't be able to convince me that there's a greater reason than tradition and emotional conservatism for some Americans to keep opposing stricter gun laws.
The one thing that I have picked up over the past couple of weeks, albeit not necessarily from this forum, is that change is a-coming in the US; that gradually what you and some others deem impossible is in fact already happening. I'm anxious to hear what Biden's proposal is going to look like next week...
And, for what it's worth, I feel I made some good points in my previous post, I would've appreciated at least an attempt at debate instead of a simple dismissal 
Re: Elementary School Shooting in US
Wait, you asked a question, I provided my answer. Don't think that after 43 pages, I haven't realized that you won't be able to convince me that there's a greater reason than tradition and emotional conservatism for some Americans to keep opposing stricter gun laws.
The one thing that I have picked up over the past couple of weeks, albeit not necessarily from this forum, is that change is a-coming in the US; that gradually what you and some others deem impossible is in fact already happening. I'm anxious to hear what Biden's proposal is going to look like next week...
And, for what it's worth, I feel I made some good points in my previous post, I would've appreciated at least an attempt at debate instead of a simple dismissal
It's not going to happen. Change may be coming, but at nowhere near the level you seem to think it is. Guns aren't going away. They will never go away. Even if by some miracle they pass a law banning them and it manages to get by the Supreme Court, people aren't giving up their guns. I can't believe after all this time you guys still aren't getting it.
I stopped reading what you wrote after your militia statement. It really just showed me that you haven't learned as much as you think you have. Every state has a "militia"...at least every state that I'm aware of. That's not even including the crazies with their own militia.
I'll believe Obama is serious when he disarms his security forces. Lead by example if guns are so unnecessary for protection. If he needs to be surrounded by people with guns for safety reasons, there's no way he can justify disarming the rest of us.
