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Re: The CD era - alternative angles
One silly thing about this band is that no matter how long it takes to get a record out, somehow the fanbase as a whole perseveres. Obviously, the total amount fluctuates depending mostly on whether we're living a touring era or a silent period. Some people 'wait' for years on end, get discouraged, and never come back no matter what happens. Others drift in and out in a more open term, basically waiting for the band to give them something to get excited about. Some merely grow cynical, a few of them sticking around due to a force of habit. I, myself, just took another minor leave of absence, as I felt I really had nothing else to say about this outfit or their ridiculously prolonged album release.
Then it hit me.
There's always something in the band and the current situation worth considering. What does it mean? For one, the situation is and always has been rather unique. This isn't your 'normal' band by any stretch of the word. Regardless of any lineups combined talent in the past 10 years, from 05/01/98 onwards GNR has existed solely as a custom-built group to accomodate the song-writing and performance of Axl Rose. What's curious is that never has such a situation gotten so entangled with various obstacles spanning from personal characteristics to ownership lawsuits, covering almost every other aspect imaginable of the production.
Have band, will tour
Rod Evans, the original Deep Purple vocalist in 1968-9, sang on the bands first three studio albums before being dumped along with bassist Nick Simper during the massive internal restructuring in '69. The lineup changes would help the band to breakthrough and establish them more clearly as a hard rock group. Evans would go to other bands while the careers of his former band mates began to thrive. At the height of their fame, they'd face a resignation comparable to Slash's departure from GNR as guitarist Ritchie Blackmoore left due to musical differences. After one more studio album in 1976 with surrogate member Tommy Bolin, Deep Purple was no more.
Until 1980.
Rod Evans, the original vocalist, had left the music industry behind several years prior, and was now approached by a shady management company specializing in rip-off bands. Their reasoning was simple: Evans would justify the use of the band name, and would remain as the only shareholder of the 'reformed' 'Purple. Both the management and their in-house players (rounding up Evans' backing band) would be on wages, meaning they couldn't be held legally accountable for any copyright infringements or whatnot.
The result was a financial and professional disaster for Evans, who was gullible enough to see this as an opportunity to make a comeback to the biz. He never had a chance anyway, as the use of the band name was out of his hands and he didn't have the contacts the band had made during the Ian Gillan-era. In retrospect, Evans' Deep Purple '80 is considered a cover band with the original singer, and a substandard one at that.
Conclusion: When measured against Deep Purple '80, Axl's GNR doesn't qualify as a rip-off band. He owns the name and never gives a show without at least three tracks of new original material. Hired help does take him closer to many recognized solo artists, who have a professional backing band, often revolving and generally anonymous. This leads to GNR being distinctly Axl's band, while he is well within his rights to perform under the name.
Then again, the setlists do contain mostly AFD material, which does take them dangerously close to a cover band. As a compromise, one needs to come to terms with the fact that Axl owns and records under the GNR name and sees the current band as a more direct continuation to the early 90's lineup than the rest of us do. And he should; the '01-'02 lineups were GNR in the sense that they'd contributed to atleast two separate albums, which Axl considered as GNR. We'd likely feel the same way (in terms of continuation if not necessarily quality) had he released those albums back in the day.
Off the record
Soon after The Sex Pistols had broken up, John Lydon abandoned the stage name of Johnny Rotten and formed a new group called Public Image Ltd., with people like Keith Levene, an original guitarist of The Clash. PIL started off as a post-punk band, garnering praise for their innovative (albeit challenging) sound and fared well in the UK. In 1982 however, the band abandoned the Old Continent in favor of New York City, while their recording contract with Warner had expired and not renewed. The band began to work on a new album, with Lydon's old associate Richard Branson of Virgin stepping in as a potential distributor. After about a years work, recordings began to take shape and in May '83 "This is not a Love Song " was readied as a single track for Branson's consideration.
However, internal tensions had escalated during the recording process and Keith Levene and current bassist Pete Jones parted ways with the band. Lydon and drummer Martin Atkins regrouped the band to meet touring commitments, while Levene took the recordings and finalized the work on the album, now titled Commercial Zone. Levene went on to present the mixes to Richard Branson as the new PIL album, yet Lydon vetoed the tracks as unfinished and unsanctioned work.
In November '83, Levene released Commercial Zone under the newly-found independent label, PIL Records. This had been the bands original intent in the beginning of the recording process, while the end product was planned as an EP called You Are Now Entering a Commercial Zone. A limited release in the US was reprinted by July '84, to coincide with Virgin's release of a reworked Commercial Zone, now titled This Is What You Want... This Is What You Get. Virgin stood by Lydon's version, which had Levene's parts re-recorded by session players. Their legal action against Levene and PIL Records prevented further selling and repressing of Commercial Zone.
The Virgin album was seen as a step to a more audience-friendly direction, and estranged most of the original fanbase. Those who have heard both albums generally regard Commercial Zone as a superior version.
Conclusion: Axl knew what he was doing when he disbanded the original musical partnership on 12/31/95. From thereon, no future GNR album could be released without his direct consent, as he would be the sole shareholder with the others acting out on wages. Otherwise we might've seen an EP from the '96 sessions if Axl would've been outvoted by Slash and Duff to turn the tracks over to Geffen.
Breakups with guitar players have also been commonplace with the new band. With the guitar parts for the Sean Beavan-produced album completed, Robin left for NIN in '99. Axl ordered some of his parts to be re-recorded by Brian May. Soon after he hired Buckethead to record additional solos to spruce up the overall sound (the various versions of TWAT set a good example for this). Therefore Robin's situation was not entirely caused by spite, it also had to do with Axl desiring to try something new after the reception of Oh My God. Had Robin stuck around, Brian May wouldn't have probably showed up, yet Bucket might've stepped in eventually.
Buckethead will most likely remain on the record, as Axl seems to have no beef over the general sound of the album or his guitar parts. Paul Huge and Brain will likely be featured on the album to varying degree as guilt inclusions if nothing more; both worked on the project consistently for six years (Paul '96-'02, Brain '00-06).
Somebody raped my Tapeworm abortion
As a concept, Tapeworm is the wet dream of every NIN/A Perfect Circle/TOOL fan. Trent Reznor would work on songs outside "the NIN brand", collaborating with members of the definitive live lineup; Charlie Clouser and Danny Lohner from the Self-Destruct -era. Vocalists included Phil Anselmo (Pantera/DOWN) and Maynard James Keenan. As time passed, Reznor finished his work on The Fragile. Meanwhile Tapeworm slowly morphed into what could be described as the near-complete Perfect Circle lineup (incl. Keenan, Lohner and Josh Freese) produced by Trent along with his associates Alan Moulder and Atticus Ross.
In 2001, Moulder tracked down an album worth of demos. Studio time was booked and all those concerned were ready to make Tapeworm happen. In 2003, Danny Lohner informed Kerrang that the album was ready to be mixed, but had been delayed by unforeseen difficulties involving Reznors and Keenans record companies (Universal and BMG). The following year, Reznor terminated the Tapeworm project, citing label issues as the main reason to shelve a fully-recorded album.
The only track to ever surface from the years spent in the Nothing Studios on an irregular basis was a track called Vacant. APC included the song to their 2001 setlist, starting from Portland, OR on 01/31/01. A way to celebrate a future prospect turned into a funeral wake as a studio version by APC (renamed Passive) was included to their cover album eMotive in 2004, after the project had been put on indefinite hiatus.
Conclusion: In both '01 and '02, Axl has performed live versions of album tracks which will likely be never released. By this I mean that the handywork of both Sean Beavan ('99-00) and Roy Thomas Baker ('00-'02) has since been eradicated by far and large in favor of Axl's personal input. As can be observed by comparing the studio leaks with any of their RIR3 counterparts, the songs have been modified to such a degree that they're almost completely different songs with the same lyrics and melodies. It is only after the leaks and the most recent shows that we are beginning to realize the most current (and possibly final) sound of the album.
Other than that, albums ready to be mixed and record company hassles sound ominous. The combined starpower of Keenan and Reznor wasn't enough to muscle Tapeworm out of jam. Keeping that in mind, $13 million dollars and the current industry climate against Axl and the GNR brand is not something I'd readily call a fair fight.
These are just a few things from the top of my hat, which are all separate events, yet they made an impression on the people involved. Add them all up, stir them with the lunacy and spending that's plagued the project since Day #1, spice up with the absence of proper management/project leaders, and you have a nightmare which haunted the record company executives for years on, until they became even more frightened of digital downloads and the decline of physical recordings.
I'm sure there are other examples.
Can you think of any?
Re: The CD era - alternative angles
Maybe other bands firing singers then moving on with other singers as the same band
-Van Halen changed from Roth to Hagar then to Cherone
-Pink Floyd dropped Barret then dropped Waters only to be replaced as frontman by Gilmour (who wasnt even original...which may even explain the reason for never letting Sorum or Clarke to join the partnership)
-Motley Crue dropped Neil for Corabi
-Black Sabbath firing Ozzy and moving on with Ronny James Dio
I cant think of any others at the moment
but this could explain his overwelming desire to become sole controller of the GnR name
Re: The CD era - alternative angles
Personally, I think Axl learned specifically from Roger Waters. Waters said the biggest mistake he ever made was under estimating the value of the Pink Floyd brand name-merchandising, touring, etc. Waters lost his lawsuit over the name issue..... 
Re: The CD era - alternative angles
I remember actually reading a similar story about Mick Jagger. In 1970, as The Stones ditched their second manager Allen Klein (who also had the Beatles as his clients), Jagger more or less took over. He had previously studied economics and had learned the ropes of the music industry by observing the bands management(s), so he had a pretty good idea of what he was doing. Anyway, the story goes that Axl was impressed with Jagger duly checking the accounts, receipts, et al at the eve of a Stones gig and had a serious hands-on approach to the business end of their line of work.
Axl's pretty much doing the same thing by now; after Alan Niven, Doug Goldstein and Merck he's finally in charge, with Beta and Del James doing most of Axl the Manager's legwork. Anyway, this is how Axl approached the entire situation back in 1989, before there even were UYI's.
Does the business end of rock & roll ever interfere with your creative attitude?
Not for us. This is music, this is art. It's definitely a good business, but that should be second to the art, not first. I was figuring it out, and I'm like the president of a company that's worth between $125 million and a quarter billion dollars. If you add up record sales based on the low figure and a certain price for T-shirts and royalties and publishing, you come up with at least $125 million, which I get less than two percent of.
[...]
Is there any lesson you've learned that you wish you knew a few years ago?
What I'd tell any kid in high school is "Take business classes." I don't care what else you're gonna do, if you're gonna do art or anything, take business classes. You can say, "Well, I don't want to get commercial," but if you do anything to make any money, you're doing something commercial. You can be flipping hamburgers at McDonald's, but you're a commercial burger flipper.
- Rolling Stone, 08/10/89 (interview by Del James)
Re: The CD era - alternative angles
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la … 4108.story
a decent article on the name issue that bands face...
Re: The CD era - alternative angles
Good one.
The article does manage to coin some basic issues about reforming hair bands. A lot of people just blew their opportunity back in the day at the height of their success, got burned and spent the 90's in a flux. Now they're attempting to pull it together again since most doors in front of them have been swung shut. Top of the heap bands like GNR and Motley Crue faltered through the past decade, and when the big fish's didn't manage to take on the Seattle movement, the lesser bands found themselves stranded. Now, GNR and Crue ride the nostalgia train as their original fanbases are in their 30's-40's. Currently, it's a very friendly market for compilations (Red, White & Crue / GNR: GH) and new tours. This target group isn't expecting them to change the face of the music world, rather than to catch some memories dating years back; the imagined freedom of youth which is now represented by the aging frontmen, symbolizing getting older and riding the time capsule. Some people and frontmen do move on, but the bands need to be sure to appease both crowds.
There you have another issue with CD. Back in the late 90's, GNR wasn't a hot property with their newly-adopted industrial sound. Now, there was money to be made with tickets to the AFD freight train. Looking back, 2001-2 could've been a reasonable period in time to release the album. Axl could've toured for a year or two and might've released a follow-up as well. Then he could've gracefully disbanded the lineup, should he have wanted to cash in on the reunion.
The big bands of the day will remain to thrive, with second-class acts like Cinderella and Poison following firmly in tow. But Eddie Trunk's closing words in the article do stick with me.
"There is no pot of gold out there for these guys. They can all make their money, and they can all have some level of success, but the glory days of playing these arenas and stadiums is over."
What do you think would've happened had Axl missed the bands last train to superstardom by prolonging the release of the UYI's for another year?
Re: The CD era - alternative angles
What do you think would've happened had Axl missed the bands last train to superstardom by prolonging the release of the UYI's for another year?
That would have been a disaster of biblical proportions. It would have been worse if a mini CD type wait occurred and the albums were ready in 1994. The music scene was a mess at the time. Great albums came out then, but there was really no clear cut direction, and UYI would have had minimal impact at the time.
Had I been their manager under such circumstances, I would have told Axl that the UYI sessions have to be scrapped, and I would hand him an assortment of albums from that time such as Superunknown, Throwing Copper, Seal II, Danzig 4, Dulcinea, Purple, Rotting Pinata, Rid of Me, Porno for Pyros, Fate of Nations, etc., made him listen to them for at least a solid week, and tell him to go back to the studio and start over.
Re: The CD era - alternative angles
Yup, that's the answer. GNR would've sold a fair amount of records based on their AFD rep, but they would've never achieved the status they did had the UYI's crash-landed in the midst of the Seattle movement. Ironically, both UYI and Nevermind were Geffen releases - with the UYIs out one week before. It's almost symbolic in retrospect, whilst a complete coincidence at the time. Geffen had no great anticipation for Cobain, but they were expecting a whole lot from Axl. The UYI's were an instant hit, whilst Nevermind was a sleeper hit, steadily growing along with the recognizability of Smells Like Teen Spirit. In a way, GNR beat the odds by claiming the level of an established act and shielding themselves from obscurity when grunge dominated the charts. A lot of their 80's peers weren't so lucky.
Also, as you mentioned the music world was shaken up so badly that there was what you might call a vacuum of power. The shakers and movers of the 80's were out of the game at least temporarily, and Cobain, the man who would be king, denied himself the crown by ending his own life in '94. Shortly, there was no new Axl.
I find it amusing that you'd had had Axl listen to all those albums. Based on what I've read, it's pretty obvious that Axl's always been super-listened. He was aware of bands like NIN and NWA far earlier than many others, and seemed to recognize the potential these groups possessed. That's always something Axl has seemingly taken into question; what's going on in music now, and what may happen in the next few years? It takes a little luck and awareness to create a sound that's not completely dated by the time of its release when people are sick and tired of hearing same antics on every other concurrent release.
While Axl had various distractions in his personal life after the UYI tour (the Seymour/Everly lawsuits, for one), I wager one reason they didn't begin on a follow-up album properly in '94 was that Axl couldn't exactly figure out where he'd want the GNR sound to go. No big surprise that at that very moment ('94-95) he was toying with the idea of putting GNR on a hiatus and take on the tumultous industry climate by creating a solo record with top-notch players from the eras other, arguably more relevant bands (Trent Reznor from NIN, Dave Navarro from Jane's Addiction, Dave Grohl from Nirvana...). Such a supergroup fronted by Axl could've done some serious damage at the time, even if they'd only released one single album.
Without Izzy sharing song writing responsibilities, and Slash taking his typical stance that it's not rocket science, just put some tunes together and release it, tour, repeat, it's no wonder Axl chose to be left with his thoughts for a year or so. When Slash came back from the Snakepit tour, Axl had figured out he didn't want Slash's straight-forward attitude and lack of consideration over the sound (as opposed Axl, that is) to "taint" the next release. Hence, Axl assumed control and demoted the others to hired help.
I assume that by '96, he had figured a new direction to which they could implement Slash's blues-based sound. By this I don't necessarily mean Axl was a singular mastermind when it came to the bands sound, rather than he seemingly needed an overall idea with which he was personally satisfied with before even going near a recording studio. The band, while together on a three-week jamming period, did mostly Axl's (and Paul Huge's) songs, but they still needed another round of songs to round up the album. After Slash quit, Axl stated the album was shelved because he wasn't able to replace Slash properly. And when you look at Robin, his sensibilities as a player are light-years away from Slash (note that I'm not comparing them technically). Therefore, Axl needed to figure out the GNR sound again, now with Robin as the key player. The music world had changed again, so he had to listen to another batch of albums all over again.
Then he was proven wrong, Buckethead was elevated as the new key player. Axl listens to some music, thinks it over again...
Years pass with little consequence.
Re: The CD era - alternative angles
we could be in the most silent year of all.:ummm: Back in the dead years there were always tidbits coming from bandmembers that they were mixing or putting the alleged "finishing touches" on the album. Now, it is well known that the Chinese Democracy recording sessions are finished. We are left with cold, stark silence.:flame:
Re: The CD era - alternative angles
The early part of both 2003 and 2005 was about as quiet. Particularly in '03 the GNR camp folded in and didn't make a peep in the longest while.
And you've said it yourself: negotiations with the label. Guaranteed to keep everybody's mouths shut. For a label, it takes 2-3 months to meet a projected release date after receiving the masters, depending on the amount of marketing push the album'll receive. Once the release mill starts grinding, people will know. By this math, I'd say CD can be expected to be come out in the latter half of the year, the earliest.
If a single could be put out on a movie soundtrack, they'd be able to tour again in the summer and ram it down everybody's throat. There will be three GNR-ish releases On Universal's plate; The Incredible Hulk (June 13th), Wanted (June 27th) and Hellboy II: The Golden Army (July 11th).
Hulk is their biggest release of the summer and will receive the biggest push. Doesn't really matter that VR had Set Me Free on the original films soundtrack. GNR needs an early summer single if they want to promote it on European festivals. If they have a great rocker to offer, Universal will slam it on a movie.
