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Re: Just say no to corporate cash grabs
johndivney wrote:Izzy, more than any of them, is tapped into the source. He's a classic, traditional songwriter.
Agreed ...Izzy is great...but as a teen I couldn't appreciate him...that's more my failing than his tho
Yea similar reaction. Like wtf is this pressure drop song?!
Once you come back to it & you see where he's coming from, understanding the influence's he's stitching together while making really cool songs, then that ju ju album starts to get under your skin & you end up listening to it for weeks. Love those kinda slow burner albums.
Going to stick it on later. It's a really beautiful record actually. I'm telling you, the U.K. music press, music mags like mojo & uncut really started hyping the shit out of Americana - I sure the same was going on on American music websites. Izzys records are totally undervalued in that context. He's on of the great modern American songwriters imo. Love him.
Re: Just say no to corporate cash grabs
Aye I know I just meant my initial reaction to hearing ju ju hounds for the first time. This was before I'd heard them break into a reggae breakdown ("gimme some reggae!") so I was unprepared.
Re: Just say no to corporate cash grabs
Speak for yourself. I know love Think About You more than I do SCoM. DTJ & PTU are close to my favourite tracks on UYI's. I'll always maintain PTU is the direction they should've explored. It's such an amazing piece.
Izzy, more than any of them, is tapped into the source. He's a classic, traditional songwriter. His songs could be folk songs, they could be pop songs, they could be psychedelic hard rock songs - Think About You could've been done by The Crystals or The Ronettes back in the day.His solo stuff alone, if there never was a guns n roses, would still be an incredible body of work. Think how feted Americana guys like Howe gelb or Ryan Adams are these days, they've got nothing on Izzy. Westerberg's a comparable peer I guess.
I like Don't Damn Me better than almost all their hits. I'm also a huge sucker for Pretty Tied Up. Doesn't change the fact that most of the songs that made GN'R popular was written by Axl and Slash, along with Izzy on a decent chunk of them. But even on the songs he wrote there is often a massive Slash contribution to make the songs what they are. Solo in Patience, riffs and solo in YCBM, solo on Don't Cry. Together Axl and Slash wrote GN'Rs biggest hit in November Rain. The only GN'R song I still hear regularly on the radio. Those type of songs are what gave the added dimension that made them comparable to Led Zeppelin instead of AC/DC.
The songs Izzy wrote alone are great in their own right, yet for the most part reduced to cult classics enjoyed by certain segments of the fan base. PTU doesn't make the top 5 unless the person is a Izzy fanatic. Nor should it, because they have that many better songs that are deserving.
In an equation of Axl, Slash and Izzy, who can you remove and still have a GN'R song? That's why he's overrated. Doesn't matter if he owns Ryan Adams. That's another type of music. One part of GN'Rs influences, but not defining of their sound, or necessarily feel.
I just connect more readily with his influences & songwriting than I do the more pompous self absorbed styling a of Axl & his influences. Slash I wish would play more acoustic stuff, get closer to his Rory Gallagher roots than playing the populist cartoony guy. Izzy's range & unabashed pilfering & homages from reggae to pop is like a gateway to the world I live in. He could've been a New York Doll. When I'm listening to the stuff Axl & Slash come from it's more like I'm visiting (except for Rory G & maybe ELO's Telephone Line - & Todd Rundgren is great too).
I actually care for Axl's influences the least. Not that they are bad, but Slash, Izzy and Duff have better ones. What I prefer about him is the talent. He can deliver a complete song. One that works both as a huge hit and as a deep cut. To me the other 4 haven't delivered a single song in their entire solo careers that is worthy of GN'R. Axl at least has a few.
Having said all that, you're right about the songs that defined the band.
But every historic band have at least one or two mega hits or identifiable classics & that's it - the Bryan Adams model again is something I like to use.
However, Guns never had any filler. It's what makes them so special.
Even if you take away the famous songs & are just left with Izzy's GnR songs you're still going to get some of the greatest rock songs ever, so I don't see how he's overrated. He's underrated if anything. He's brilliant, knows his stuff, a proper learned craftsman. You should appreciate him more tbh mate, his songs are magic & have the alchemy of the greats.
If I met him I'd give him a hug.Re atoms nest:
Izzy isn't blazing a trail? What do you want him to be Taylor swift? Phil Collins? Gareth Brooks. He writes great rock n roll records, what more do you want from him?? He does his job & does it real well. Everything else is just wasted/wasteful energy.
The mega hits is what separates them from the pack. Often Izzy was a part of that, other times he was not. That's not lessening his contribution. He was a central part of the band and contributed a string of great songs. But calling him the heart and soul of GN'R is overrating him. Saying they can't write great songs without him is overrating him. He is not the brain of GN'R. He is like you say, a New York Doll. Low key. Brings good songs to the table and a groove, but he's not indispensable like the guitar of Slash and the voice of Axl Rose.
Re: Just say no to corporate cash grabs
I love JuJu Hounds as well. I had to warm up to it. When I heard it was being released, my teenage mind thought, "Holy shit...an album full of Dust N Bones!!". I was a tad surprised. Still loved it but it was just different to the current music I was listening to at the time. When hanging out with friends I'd listen to GNR, SG, AIC, Metallica,etc. Home alone I'd whip out JuJu.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Just say no to corporate cash grabs
Because Izzy's material is so great without the others! It is statements like that, that make him overrated. They elevated each other. It's not like Izzy is blazing a trail without them.
Exactly!
I do like Izzy, and he sure comes up with solid song ideas as the foundation to songs, but I also think the GNR songs are greatly helped along by the presence of one of the greatest guitarists of all time, and one of the greatest singers of all time, all on the same damn track.
I feel that his solo work is much like the other GNR guys solo work - there's elements of greatness and from time to time you hear a song and go "man if this only had the other members it would turn into a full blown GNR track"
Meanwhile I feel there's certain fan theories that seem to build like a mythology. I wouldn't say they aren't true exactly - but it's more they are repeated so often that no one considers anything else any more and it's just accepted as fact when actually it's one opinion.
I consider Niven's views on Izzy to be like that - and also Izzy's statement that steven was essential for bringing "the swing" to the songs.
Everyone online now says Matt is a poor drummer ever since that remark, but actually the drums on UYI are fairly killer, both locomotive and YCBM are heavily drum driven, the fills on NR are iconic.....
I'd like to see Steven utilised in some capacity at the shows as I feel he deserves it for being the original drummer, and was treated harshly back in the day, but I'd also like to see Matt there because to me he's the best GNR drummer.
- tejastech08
- Rep: 194
Re: Just say no to corporate cash grabs
All I know is that Axl/Slash/Duff were unable to create new songs without Izzy. He was just as important as anyone else.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: Just say no to corporate cash grabs
All I know is that Axl/Slash/Duff were unable to create new songs without Izzy.
That's the bit I dispute.
In my opinion both Axl and Slash went on to write some of their strongest works when you only look at the parts they added.
Axl's CD melodies and vocals are some of his strongest, but there's no Slash. Likewise some of Slash's best guitar lines are found outside of GNR.
The only reason those songs are inferior to GNR (if they even are in some cases) is the absence of the other.
Thus my contention = the reason they were unable to write together thereafter has more to do with the control in the band than it has to do with Izzy leaving - other than Izzy also left due to control issues in the band.
Basically, Slash wanted to do a rock record like 5'Oclock Somewhere - which wasn't super interesting to Axl at the time - and Slash didn't have the patience to watch Axl tinker with it for 2 or 20 more years - which he was able to do while he was in control. Meanwhole Axl seemed to get into stuff that while cool - was fundamentally not what Slash was about in the band - such as adding NIN synths and making songs like OMG and My World - and his other ideas were also anti-slash like "Let's Also have Zakk on lead too".
These are the reasons they "can't write a song" together.
But in isolation they clearly can write - Slash comes up with great riffs like Anastasia, and Axl comes up with amazing melodies like Catcher.
It's more politics than lack of ability.
