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Re: GNR issue statement about Robin
Backslash wrote:I think that Better was recorded in Drop D and everything tuned down a half step (making the tuning half step drop D flat). That's what would make the most sense anyway. And it wouldn't matter if guitars are tuned differently. You can play all the same notes and chords in different positions anyway. The problem lies when they play songs in different keys. I think that's probably what Del was alluding to. Axl's voice has changed since the project started all those years ago. It's quite possible that they needed to adjust the keys all the songs were originally written in so that he could sing along. That would mean they have to rerecord. To me, that's what makes the most sense.
Yep, Better is in Drop Db and you're right about all different ways to play stuff.
I still think it's better to be in the right tuning instead of playing different ways though, I can't explain it but it just sounds better to me.
If I remember right, pretty much everything GNR has recorded from AFD through TSI? was all recorded half a step down from standard. So maybe more material on CD follows the even lower Drop Db key instead. Perhaps songs like Better were originally recorded in that half step down and then lowered and hence re-recorded later?
Is that what you're suggesting? If so, that's what makes the most sense to me.
What I think is that Axl's register may have changed. Songs that were originally recorded in the key of B flat, for example, probably had to be changed to A or A flat, because his voice lowered. That's a natural occurrence as singers age. Look at Robert Plant. When he sings Zeppelin songs now, to hit the notes, the key is down three or four steps.
It's a huge problem when you take 15 years to record an album. Naturally, the singer's voice changes. Guitar parts that were recorded in a certain key have to be rerecorded five or six years later if the singer can no longer reach the notes in that key. That's what I think Del was getting at, but who knows?
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: GNR issue statement about Robin
What I think is that Axl's register may have changed. Songs that were originally recorded in the key of B flat, for example, probably had to be changed to A or A flat, because his voice lowered.
Interesting Theory. I have two thoughts on this:
(a) Are you sure his voice is getting lower and not higher? My understanding in relation to spoken voice (not singing) was in females the voice lowers with age and in males it raises. (I'm talking in late adulthood not puberity). Thats why old men often have quite a high voice and old women often quite low. I would have thought the same would apply to singing. Futher to this...I think on Eddie trunk when asked about his voice axl said something about wearing tighter underpants now...implying a higher tone. Then you combine that with his "hellium" voice in the 2002 shows, and that the leaks feature extreme high pitch vocals - "I would do anything for you" in TWAT is insanely high, and "you know its true" in IRS isn't exactly low. Then on bach's album the "riding high" backing vocals on "Back in the Saddle" almost blew my stereo. Then theres the key he does "Sailing" in live. All of this doesn't sit with someone who cant sing high anymore. Unless he is taking out those parts of the album now. I mean i noticed he sings IRS lower live - but i figured that was just cos that scream is too demanding for a show. But its definately the lower parts of the songs where he sounds like he is putting on a false voice or struggling now (in particualr patience) Anyway - what i'm saying is i agree his register has changed..but I think he sings higher now..not lower...
(b) Why rerecord if his register changes? Unless the vocals were unfinished and he can no longer finish vocals on half done tracks. If the vocals are done..leave it...and play it live in a different key...only the musicans in the crowd could tell.
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: GNR issue statement about Robin
The more i think about it the more I think his voice is higher these days. Listen to some of the boots from the less good shows. Whenever he sings something and it sounds bad its ussually cos he hit a note higher than the melody used to go.
I'm not having a go at Axl. I love him. I'm just saying theres golden performances and less good. And when its less good that seems to be whats happening.
Re: GNR issue statement about Robin
it's kinda both
he cannot hit the high notes with the full tone that he used to
so the upper parts sound less full and higher when they aren't any higher at all, just missing some lower depth
this is why he sounded helium like in '02, combined with the no rasp approach.
'02 seemed to be an experimental period for him that didn't pan out
he has clearly matured as a vocalist over the years and although the voice does drop with age he seems to still have the range and is even now challenging it further with these new songs
Re: GNR issue statement about Robin
If Andy Wallace is the mixer that could be what they're talking about. Sometimes his mixing sounds fuzzy. He's more of a raw rock producer, which struck me as odd as why something so well produced and pristine as the demos production quality (which is awesome, btw) that Axl would choose Andy to mix it.
Wallace may be only doing certain songs, or has only done some tryouts in order for Axl to determine whether he'd be a suitable candidate for the job. Considering that Axl has a major crush on Dave Grohl (as the drum track on CD states), it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine the Nevermind mixer is asked to take a stab at the title track, possibly among others.
With all the money sunk into this album and masses of rented gear etc etc (according to the Zutaut interview), surely they could have afforded a guitar tech to tune the guys bloody guitar before he starts playing?
As a matter of fact...
Guitar technicians earned about $6,000 per month, while the album's main engineer was paid $14,000 per month and a recording software engineer was paid $25,000 a month, the document stated. - NY Times
Six grand a month gets you some shitty techs 
Personally, I don't think its worth that much hubbub. I think Del's comments have been taken somewhat out of context.
there are no plans in Guns to rewrite or re-record Robin's parts for the album. They seem fine whereas before, and this was no fault of Robin's, there were tuning issues that needed to be addressed....
The way I read it suggests his parts were replaced the last time (in '99, by Brian May) because there were "tuning issues" which weren't "fault of Robin's". Whether or not one takes Del's comments as canon here, he seems to be saying Brian May was called in the first place because Robin was unavailable to record his parts and get rid of those pesky tuning issues.
Personally, I'm still akin towards the fact that May was brought in to guest as a 'surrogate Slash', as Axl didn't have the heart to tell Robin he's uncomfortable in having the Finckster as the sole leading man, as his solos are distinctively different from those bluesy tunes and whether or not he can carry a whole guitar-driven album entirely on his own shoulders like Slash is debatable on the best of days.
Like I mentioned in a different thread, this whole saga was likely not nearly as ambitious as we had been led to believe. Instead of some masterpiece being created over a decade, the sessions were spotty, erratic at best, and would certainly explain the cycle of band member departures. Finck's gone now, and apparently there were "tuning issues"?
They should have sorted out those issues back in 1999.
While I think the "tuning issues" were indeed sorted in '99 - and have not been a recent problem - face it, whomever who's been thinking there'd be carefully crafted masterpiece hasn't read that many articles on the recording process, or is gleefully duped by the statements of Axl's personal street team (Mysteron / Del / Beta / etc.). People who were there have been going into the record for a decade saying that everything was basically splashed on the wall like a bucket of paint, to see what'd stick and how it'd come out. There are songs - good ones - but the creative process has been painstaking to say the least. One of the main reasons for the delays has been the fact that Axl hasn't been able to get a grip on what sort of album he should release.
Its starting to look like there wasn't nearly as much recording going on as previously thought. Like you said, this album was recorded in bits and pieces for over a decade, and you can feel the cut and paste jobs on tracks such as Better, CITR,etc.
A trilogy? Unlikely. The trilogy is probably the same sessions rerecorded on 3 separate occasions.
Say, around 60-70 tracks recorded on three separate occasions. There were always enough instrumentals, there's no doubt about it. Axl wrote and recorded vocals to the Beavan album for atleast 10-15 tracks, which would've probably rounded up a whole album. At that point in time, Axl admitted to writing the lyrics 'last', which does make sense considering the approach they had on song-writing. There's really no point in writing more than cursory lines before you have a full structure in place and remain reasonably happy about the outcome. Basically, songs weren't written. They were forged, and when Axl went 'Ok, we got a song now', he went down and did the vocal tracks. So the vocal tracks were understandably always more scarce than much labored instrumentals.
When they had a reasonable amount of 'songs' (which means a structure and a vocal track), they'd be rerecorded with a different producer and various temp mixes would be made. As for the instrumentals, the producer would likely listen to the tracks Axl'd been developing the furthest and start reworking them to different directions, rerecording and adding various bits and pieces to give a more distinctive feel to it. RTB's a kitchen-sink kinda guy, while I always found Beavan to be more low-key in various instances, so it's easy (while simplifying) to suggest it was Axl and RTB who started bringing up the orchestrations.
There's been rerecordings by various lineups since 1997. Its obviously not going to have the same vision he originally had in mind because he keeps adding people to it, and its people who just walked in the door not even knowing exactly what it is he really wants. At some point, the CD concept gets diluted and loses all meaning of its original intent.
He had no vision. If he could say outright, he would. You don't try out various studio musicians and sought-after session players (not to mention producers) if you have a clear-cut idea of what the record'll be like. To the credit of Sean Beavan and Paul Huge, they got Axl of his ass to bend over and do some songs - with vocal tracks - and I have a good feeling those two will one day be the unsung heroes of this saga.
Axl didn't have a clue when he started, but he might've gotten the hang of it somewhere down the line.
Rose: We've been working on, I don't know, 70 songs. [...] The record will be about, anywhere from 16 to 18 songs, but we recorded at least two albums' worth of material that is solidly recorded. But we are working on a lot more songs than that at the same time... in that way, what we're doing is exploring so, you know, you get a good idea, you save it, and then maybe you come back to it later, or maybe you get a good idea and you go, "That's really cool, but that's not what we're looking for. Okay, let's try something new." You know, basically taking the advance money for the record and actually spending it on the record. - MTV, '99
The rebuilding - and ongoing reinvention - of Guns N Roses has been a difficult and, quite obviously, slow and expensive process. Rose does point out that the expense will be less glaring if, as he expects, he gets another record out of the hours and hours of material he's committed to tape, possibly one that's even more industrial and electronica-influence than Chinese Democracy. ''I'd like to take some of the old Guns fans along with me gradually into the twenty-first century,'' he says. - RS, 00
Of course, the ideas Axl speaks for another album are probably outdated by now, as plans regarding the overall sound have quite possibly changed. However, I maintain there has been a semi-solid pool of tracks slated to appear on CD since '99. All those songs have been rerecorded and worked on. Then, there have been additional instrumental tracks, which have been worked on simultaneously, and they have tentatively been directed to further albums. If the song turns good enough (like Better), it might get a promotion and replace some CD staple on the so-called A-list. As time has passed, more instrumentals have likely gained a state in which the vocals are added. Thus the pool of songs ready for release keeps growing - more temp mixes are ordered, the cycle of Axl listening everything through and deciding on the sound keeps getting longer and longer...
