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Re: For the first time...
I don't know if The Slip format is the perfect one,
It isn't the "perfect model", but like you said, Trent is on the right track.
I hope he stays the course. Hopefully he can take the concept even further. Had Trent been under the thumb of a label, the record would have been sold in a few chains for $9.99-$17.99 and would have received a small yet decent profit. Most people used to the current culture would have downloaded it anyways while hardcores would buy it. Then when he tours, his label might have tried bargaining for a piece of that pie as well.
He cut out the middle man standing between himself and fans. Give it for free, please fans, generate buzz, and the hardcores buy it anyways while he reaps a majority of the profits. He then goes on a successful tour and rakes in plenty of dough there.
Why should he do things "normally"? He's playing a huge role in the transition. He has also started a trend. Musicians on myspace, youtube,etc. are giving away their material for free. They are now understanding certain aspects of the concept. I know labels and "anti-downloaders" are having trouble coming to terms with the new era. Like I said in my last post, its time to adapt. It isn't going away.
That's what NIN has done so well - they know that even in download form there is more to an album than merely the tracks within it.
Bingo.
Re: For the first time...
Neemo wrote:I've been looking for Ashes Divide and Candlebox...can't find them in a store
Oh, but don't download them. It might piss off the labels and wal mart. Buy the Hanna Montana soundtrack instead.:haha:
yeah i like buying the material though ... but it really sucks that i cant find it...i dont like ordering online either cuz if its defective its a pain to return 
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: For the first time...
Great posts guys. I know i'm the resident Devil's Advocate poster in relation to the music industry on this board 
Interesting stuff about the death of the record stores. it's been a bit different here in Melbourne Australia. There's always been the rare odd private record store (melbourne is a very small city by international standards) but most of the music stores are chain based. The real change was simply the death of one chain based music retailer (brashs) and the rise of another JB HiFi...and of course the inculsion of CDs in variety style stores like Kmart, Target, and so on. I can see that the kind of culture you guys used to have would sway my views on the matter too.
I guess what i'm trying to say about it all is I have a couple of issues with the new models:
Firstly...i feel its fine for established millionares like Trent to get on a high horse about music being free and so on, but he has had years of traditional commerical push to be able to back that move. My question is - yeah it works for an established band like NIN with a fan base and a known name - but what is the new unsigned band to do? What would GNR do if Slash, Izzy and Axl were the street kids of 1983 or whatever but in 2008? Like trent can afford to make a super-hi-res recording of himself and then give it away for free. What is a band like mine to do? Where do I get $1 Million dollars for a studio recording and even if I get it, if I'm then expected to sell the produce of that recording for free or pocket change - how is that viable for continued production of new albums? I fully endorse kicking the corporate assholes in the nuts like trent is - but I also see the need for some kind of viable way for music to sold. It costs a ton of money to make quality stuff, and we need to have a model that makes this money back even if it doesn't turn over a profit. And the NIN model is not that for any band other than an established name group.
The other alternative is to go "free love" and say all music should be made for free and kept for free. Which has a romantic vibe to it. But then we have to consider then - that would mean that studio level recodings will go to home-studio level on a mass scale. I mean my demos sound ok for the cheap money I make them on. But they sound shit compared to what $10million from Warner would sound like at a studio.n Its ok if we want to make this change but we have to understand thats what we'll get. Cos right now guys like trent can do it out of their own money - but thats because they are already rich - if we disable the industry there won't be new rich acts. But are new upcomming acts supossed to work night shift at kmart till they can save $500k for an album? The idea of having a record company to develop new acts isn't all bad.
Thirdly...what about finding new talent? If there is no R+D and No labels promoting stuff...how do we sift through thousands of myspace pages of kids playing crap, to find the new upcomming professional musicians. How do we find the GNR of yesterday today? Or even the new buckcherry's and co - and distinguish them from the posers and hacks. There needs to be some kind of record industy - yeah the old one was dodgy - but replacing it with stuff like NIN are doing only works for people like trent.
I think i'm alone in that view...but hey!! It's fun to tell ya'll what i think!;)
- Communist China
- Rep: 130
Re: For the first time...
I know it doesn't work for everyone, but Trent's doing a good thing as far as I can see, he isn't calling out other bands about the way they release music (except Radiohead once or twice). In his defense he's always battled with labels. He hated his first deal, and a lot of the angst in Broken (which had to be recorded under a different band name) comes from it. He got a deal that included his own record branch, Nothing, where he tried to help artists up without the usual label bullshit (Marilyn Manson, Prick). Unfortunately, a harsh reality, corruptive friends, and drugs got in the way of him making a difference there. So with a second chance he's gone totally non-label. I know he's a millionaire, but it's still a good step.
After all, if an indie nobody band gave away an album for free, who'd care? If NIN's doing it, the media, music fans, and other bands pay attention.
To Neemo, Ashes Divide and Candlebox are my two favorite releases of 2008 (and considering both Blind Melon and NIN put new music out this year, that's saying something). You gotta track them down. Ashes is a bit of a grower but Into the Sun is gold from the first listen.
Re: For the first time...
Firstly...i feel its fine for established millionares like Trent to get on a high horse about music being free and so on, but he has had years of traditional commerical push to be able to back that move. My question is - yeah it works for an established band like NIN with a fan base and a known name - but what is the new unsigned band to do?
You go to youtube. Go to myspace. Play in clubs. Hand a cd of your best tracks to DJs. Promote yourself. Be confident in your music. In other words, you go to the people.
Like M.I.A. did.:thumbup:
She wasn't backed by millions of dollars. She was an immigrant in her late 20's who made a mixtape of demos with a DJ she was fucking. Look where she's at four years later.
No offense to you or any of the other musicians here and hopefully you don't take this the wrong way, but I don't feel sorry for new artists. Cream rises to the top. Fact. If you're good enough, you will get your music to the people. You don't need Trent's bank account to be a success. You need talent. The youtube/myspace dipshits you are referring to don't have talent. There's probably 10 good bands out of every thousand on myspace, but its their job to expose me to their music. Cant pass the buck somewhere else.
$1 Million dollars for a studio recording and even if I get it, if I'm then expected to sell the produce of that recording for free or pocket change - how is that viable for continued production of new albums?
Beating the M.I.A. horse again, but the XR2 demo was recorded on her comp while in Tokyo. It didn't require a million dollar studio tab. In fact, the total budget she had for the Kala recording was $100,000, and a chunk of that was spent globe trotting because she couldn't get a visa to record it in the US.
Technology is amazing. If this was the 60's, I'd agree with you. Its 2008. If M.I.A. can record Kala demos on her comp in Africa, Japan,etc. in 2006, I think your band can do the same.
I fully endorse kicking the corporate assholes in the nuts like trent is - but I also see the need for some kind of viable way for music to sold. It costs a ton of money to make quality stuff, and we need to have a model that makes this money back even if it doesn't turn over a profit. And the NIN model is not that for any band other than an established name group.
You can release your album for free, and in fact I would advise it. Schedule some shows for a mini club tour. Days before each show, hand out free discs in the area you're doing your shows. You might be surprised to see an increase in attendance. Did you make a few bucks from cd purchases? No, but you possibly took a step in establishing a fanbase.
The idea of having a record company to develop new acts isn't all bad.
How many relevant new acts do you see? They cant even do that job anymore. Instead of looking for the next Guns N Roses, Uni is releasing AFD again.
Like I said, the public is sick of this bullshit and will decide themselves what they want to listen to and how they want to acquire the music. Its no longer up to the labels.
What would GNR do if Slash, Izzy and Axl were the street kids of 1983 or whatever but in 2008?
Jungle would be the most watched youtube/myspace video, AFD would sell about 200,000 copies, and they'd be opening for Metallica or U2 on their next tour.
In other words, kicking ass and bringing their music to the people.
Re: For the first time...
Another good post James.
Recording technology is amazing, and getting cheaper by the day. It doesn't cost a million dollars to make a record anymore. If you can make a record as good as Kala for $100,000, you can make anything for a reasonable amount.
Key point: YOU DON'T HAVE TO MAKE MONEY OFF OF RECORDS. Period. Touring is generating more money than ever, and that's where the true money lies for any band. Release the album for free, and you are establishing a fan base. They didn't have to pay for it, but they enjoy it, and then want to go see you. You have given them something for free, without them knowing if they will like it or not. They didn't waste money, and you aren't really out anything because there will always be more people out there that like it and are willing to go see a show and buy merchandise.
Record labels are dead. And since they can't make money with records, they aren't willing to take chances with bands that are fresh sounding and innovative. That would be taking a chance, and that's gambling with money. If a market is as unstable as the record market, you don't tend to take high risk investments. Instead, you try to find something that will make a lot of money really quick to try and squeeze out all you can before it dies off.
Bands like GNR and Soundgarden aren't getting signed anymore.
That's why we see so many nostalgia bands like Crash Midnight and Wolfmother. Bands that sound like bands that came out decades before them.
Re: For the first time...
To Neemo, Ashes Divide and Candlebox are my two favorite releases of 2008 (and considering both Blind Melon and NIN put new music out this year, that's saying something). You gotta track them down. Ashes is a bit of a grower but Into the Sun is gold from the first listen.
I got Ashes divide last night finally...and i'm getting my hands on a copy of Operator soon jsut waiting for the delivery
still need candlebox so i hope to find that soon
- monkeychow
- Rep: 661
Re: For the first time...
No offense to you or any of the other musicians here and hopefully you don't take this the wrong way, but I don't feel sorry for new artists. Cream rises to the top. Fact. If you're good enough, you will get your music to the people. You don't need Trent's bank account to be a success. You need talent. The youtube/myspace dipshits you are referring to don't have talent. There's probably 10 good bands out of every thousand on myspace, but its their job to expose me to their music. Cant pass the buck somewhere else.
Nah i actually agree about the cream rising to the top...but that's half the thing for me...like there needs to be a top for it to rise to. Myspace doesn't have such a top...but record companies did...the good bands got signed...the crap didn't. While theres always some great underground unknown acts...in general in the 1980s you could check out the signed artists and find yourself the most talented artists in all genres to choose from. It's not like that today - if you want to find them today - you have to hit the internet and sort through all the posers and crap. Myself I don't want to have to wade through all the garbage to find a good band...I want there to be some system.....maybe not what we have now...but not the free for all either.....
for the Kala recording was $100,000, and a chunk of that was spent globe trotting because she couldn't get a visa to record it in the US.
Yeah i'll grant $100k will go a lot futher than it used to. But you've got to give me - that's a lot of $ for a normal person to have to find and commit to a project. Immagine GNR were 22yo again - would any of those junkies have saved up $100,000 to record AFD as an independant act - then put it on the web for free and make their money touring from the publicity/fan base it generated? Hell No. We never would have seen AFD or GNR under the model of the industry that we're moving towards.
You can release your album for free, and in fact I would advise it. Schedule some shows for a mini club tour. Days before each show, hand out free discs in the area you're doing your shows. You might be surprised to see an increase in attendance. Did you make a few bucks from cd purchases? No, but you possibly took a step in establishing a fanbase.
YEah...that's not a bad idea. I guess perhaps I see things from a different perspective being an Australian. You see - over here - at the ass end of the world - most foreign bands who tour don't make big profits from it - they're lucky to break even. It's because they have to lug tons of gear (amps/pyro video screens/staging) half way across the world to get here - and when they do get here - they find a country with the physical distance of the entire united states - yet only 20 Million people living in it. So they can only play like 4 shows at our "big" cities (which are piss small) to pay for the tab...and it doesn't work out.
If you replace the record industry with a model where bands give CDs away for free - then make their money back to pay for the CD with live shows - i think i'd never get to see a live show again!
